My team is crushing Wolfe Tone on these lists. I don't know what else I'd have to do to get votes. I think it's pretty clear-cut, unless people think Wolfe Tone has some sort of major mismatch to exploit. I am anticipating the Bo Jackson angle. Someone may say Jackson was superb. Well, same thing with my Jackson. I'll have a cow if I hear the Bo Jackson thing and I don't hear the Rich Jackson thing, or the Kenny Easley thing, for that matter. I could also list first team All-Pro honors, but I'd be here all day.
relax fella, I put my team together for a scheme, maybe they liked what I have done, you are talking like my team is brutal and would not even come out on the field, it might not be just about awards for some posters, it could be how they all fit together, this is only a fun tournament not the be all and end all
I think you can relax. You have a lead. Again, I'm not going away quietly when I'm losing. This will happen every week if I think I'm not getting enough votes. I feel I have a better team and I think I proved it factually. TGG voters arguments would be if people think the HOFSC, media, and league personnel who put out these lists were off their rockers and that they picked the wrong players. I didn't say your team was brutal. The idea was to draft the best all-time players. Those official lists would indicate my team is more solid. That's not saying your team is brutal. The HOFSC, media, and league personnel are not saying your team is brutal. What they are saying is my team is, as a whole, probably better. Fun tournament? Not to me. I think this would have been fun if we stopped after the draft and didn't have this voting stuff. We could have come to a general concensus as to who drafted good. We didn't even have to have a clear winner. Also, my team was put together for a scheme, as well.
Here was my rationale: Wolf Tone has an outstanding offensive line, and with Terrell Owens and Sterling Sharpe he has two of the best possesion recievers out there (had he not injured his neck, Sharpe would IMO be remembered as one of the greatest recievers of all time.) Both also have plenty of speed and Owens especially is an amazing downfield threat. Barney was known as a speedster and is remembered for his big play ability, both as a corner and on special teams. He certainly could make the big play but he was only 6'0" and 180 pounds. Physically T.O. on Barney is a mismatch (Owens can run with Barney and stands 3 inches over him with a 40 pound advantage in weight.) Roger Wehrli I admittedly know less about, but from what I read he seems to be a decent matchup for Sharpe. I wouldn't expect Sharpe to have a breakthrough game but don't expect him to be stifled either. Then add the explosive speed of Bobby Mitchell in the slot and you have a defense that will have to devote a lot of energy to stopping the pass. I'd imagine that Brian Dawkins would be stuck helping out on Terrell Owens most of the game leaving Easley to drop back in coverage and protect against the big play. Which is where Bo Jackson comes in. With that kind of run blocking (particuarly DeLamie and the TE Casper, who seem to be built perfectly for power running that Jackson excelled in.) In Cakes' linebacking corps, Bell and Ham are tremendous atheletes who could counteract Jackson's speed somewhat but they would need to read everything almost perfectly because of the above mentioned mismatch in the passing game. To put even more doubt in the defenses mind, as if Wolfe Tone needed a change of pace from Jackson's blazing speed (he supposedly ran a 4.15 40 yard dash before his hip injury) Bobby Mitchell could most certainly provide it, and would be an invaluable tool in the play action game with his ability as a reciever. Wolfe Tone has too big an athletic advantage IMO for Cakes' defense--it's a huge play waiting to happen, and Bo Jackson is not the forgiving type late in games. IMO Cakes would have to put up huge offense to keep pace with Wolfe Tone and that all depends on whether Winston Hill and Boomer Brown could stop White and Youngblood. If so Cakes could work Marshall Faulk to the outside, but I don't think that he could generate enough to keep up that way. Stabauch and company vs. Wolfe Tone's secondary doesn't seem like a particuarly favorable matchup for either side. For those reasons I would choose Wolfe Tone to win in a competitive game, though the score may end up more lopsided than it should. Key matchups: Terrell Owens vs. Lem Barney Bob Brown and Jackie Smith vs. Reggie White Dermonti DeLamie vs. Bob Lilly/Buck Buchanan
First of all, I applaud anyone who puts this kind of effort into an explanation. Right now we have 17 votes cast here. One was kinghenry89's, one was mine, and one was Wolfe Tone. Who are the other 14 people? Some could be those weird trolls we have here. They could be casting votes for the hell of it and not even giving the teams any thought. We could have people who dislike me casting votes against me as opposed to casting votes against my team. The same thing sort of thing could be going on with Wolfe Tone. You don't know. Who cast these other 14 votes and why? In the United States we can't even vote for a President properly. Look at what happened in Florida. American Idol had a few problems with their voting. MLB All Star Games- look at some of the weird voting there. Remember that time Jose Canseco was voted a starter and he had barely played that season? There could be screwy stuff going on here or all 17 votes might be great and well-thought out. The problem is without voter explanations we don't know. But at least we know kinghenry89 came with material. I don't agree with all of it, but at least the effort is there. A couple quibbles: This is off base. I have two big corners (both 6 foot) who probably would matchup at least alright against Owens and Sharpe. The prototype cornerback is probably 5'10" or 5'11", so my guys are taller than the norm and should be okay. I don't see either a height advantage or an athletic advantage. I'm looking at my starting 11 right now and every one of 'em was considered especially athletic for his position. Of the 11, Wehrli or Dawkins were probably the least athletic in comparison to the average player at their respective positions- and those two guys were not exactly non-athletic. Wehrli was a high school sprint champion. We all know about Dawkins. Buchanan was a 6'7" 270 lb. tackle who ran from sideline to sideline. I've seen this on film quite a bit and I've read about this in a number of books. If you watch old Chiefs highlights you'll see #86 all over the field. Now could somebody say my defense is athletic and that Wolfe Tone's offense is off-the-charts athletic? I suppose someone could say that, although I wouldn't agree with it. I don't think you could say Wolfe Tone's offense has "too big an athletic advantage". That's selling my defense too short, in my opinion. I think it is one of these- he has a small advantage, it is a push, or I have the advantage. I don't think you can say he has a big advantage. I noted this in Wolfe Tone's Week 2 game. He has no true strong safety. He drafted two free safeties. How much voters want to take off for that is up to them. It's not like Wolfe Tone has a linebacker playing safety. But we did have to draft a free safety and a strong safety and he drafted two frees.
It's a deal. I don't know if it's big, but it's a deal. I wrote about this issue when commenting on Jackie Slater. I'll dig it up later and post it here. I remember him as a free safety. I don't know how much he played at strong safety. Even if he did it a little, he was certainly better at free safety.
Here is the PM exchange. The voters may have been unclear about some things here and hopefully this clears up any possible uncertainties. Here's what I think the voting is about and the way Murrell explained it to me before drafting began. (I had asked him specifically about Chuck Bednarik. I wrote that Bednarik was phenomenal in his time but is small by today's standards and probably wouldn't be as great if we time warped him to play in this tournament in some alternate universe.) Murrell said this was supposed to be about how good the players were in their playing days. What I do is I look at how dominant the players may have been in their playing days (the All-Time Teams and specifically All-Decade Teams are designed to show the best players of particular eras). If there is a decided edge for one team, I usually don't have to bother looking at anything else. Next, I look at any possible schematic issues a team may have. Then I look for any possible Xs and Os mismatches that could be exploited. I can usually stop here at every game.
I vote the same way, and I also have many guys that are not recognizeable but played at a high level so both of us are burned to that respect, With this matchup I see it as close, obviously I see my team as being better, I did pick my team. but close all the same, I see your team in the top 4 over all just like 2 others, but depending on the matchup a lower rank in the 5-10 could still beat a higher ranking team, Good game so far anyway, I am happier about this result win or loss compared to last week
I'm not sure that after what I posted yesterday and last night, how eight votes were cast and five of them were for Wolfe Tone. I wouldn't have expected all eight, but I feel I should have had the five (or more). I will throw out some facts and a general comment on my team which is fact/opinion. Facts Hall of Famers Cakes 17 Wolfe Tone 11 (and that includes Sammy Baugh as his punter; Baugh really didn't make the HOF based on his punting) Possible future Hall of Famers Cakes- 5 (Faulk, Wehrli, Haley, Rice, Dawkins) Wolfe Tone- 6 (Favre, Owens, McDaniel, Dawson, E. Williams, Atwater) Combine those numbers- Cakes 22, Wolfe Tone 17 Official All-Time NFL Team Honors Cakes- 43 (39 first team, four second team) Wolfe Tone- 24 (23 first team, one second team) Decorated players- Cakes- 22 (with two more upcoming) Wolfe Tone- 14 (with one more upcoming and possibly one other coming) Fact/opinion My team was drafted to get guys who would probably work well together. I drafted a great split end WR in Paul Warfield. He was not a ballhog. Talent-wise he was the Randy Moss of his time, but he had a Curtis Martin type of attitude. My backup RB, Leroy Kelly, was the Curtis Martin of the 1960s- a steady, team player. Not flashy, but exceptional and he is a Hall of Famer. I have enough balls to go to Marshall Faulk and Jerry Rice. Fact My team has no player out of position. Therefore, factually my team looks better than Wolfe Tone's. Then, if you take into account I have nobody out of position and no schematic problems, it would stand to reason it would be hard to cast a vote against my team. And be sure to read post #29.
Dennis Smith was the strong safety, Atwater the free safety. Please show me something that indicates he played strong safety. All I have is free safety. I even talked to some Broncos fans and they didn't back any strong safety playing time. The reason why this is an issue to me (and I mentioned this when I talked about Jackie Slater), is because it is unintentionally deceptive. The typical voter here, if he doesn't realize it, may see Atwater listed as your strong safety and think that's pretty good. We're all familiar with the man as he hasn't been retired for that long. He's a heavy hitter and looks good on your team. Fact is he didn't play strong safety and if he did it was for very little and/or it was at the end of his career when he was no longer good.
More on this strong safety stuff: The strong safety generally lines up on the tight end's side of the formation (Murrell has this reversed in above posts, by the way) and is responsible for covering the tight end. The free safety usually is not assigned any particular player to cover, lines up to the side away from the tight end, and plays the deepest of the defensive backs. Atwater was great in run support. He was not great covering TEs. Also, Wolfe Tone indicated he's playing Lloyd at LOLB and Baughan at ROLB. He's gotta reverse them because my team is right-handed (Jackie Smith will be lined up next to the right tackle). EDIT- there is a correction to be made. In his team bio, Tone does show Lloyd as a LOLB and Baughan as a ROLB. However, in Murrell's depth chart post Baughan is at LOLB and Lloyd is at ROLB, so that is correct there. I would play Lane on Warfield, Allen on Rice, and assign Hanks to Faulk, if I were Wolfe Tone. I'd have to double cover Smith or Sanders (depending upon which Cakes' TE is in the game) with Baughan and Atwater because the tight end would win those one-on-one battles. That's going to leave single coverage on the two deadly wide receivers. This is what I saw as the key Xs and Os issue of this particular game. I had asked a question about this on page 1. EDIT (because I don't want to start a new post)- Why bother anymore? I feel I have presented way more than enough to get the majority of the votes. I'm dumbfounded as to what more I should do. Whether my team wins or loses this week, I will present my team's case differently in future matchups. I am putting great effort into this whole tournament and I'm not getting anything out of it except ill will.
I'm disappointed. The facts are there. The effort is there. The reasoning is there. The pointing out of the fact I have no schematic problems and the other guy has one. What more does a guy have to do?
Why the heck not? I'll address the entire post this time. Nobody who voted for me backed my team with a post like this, so I'll do it myself. First, that Barney weight and height thing is a strange comment. The prototype corner is 5'10", 5'11". My corners are both taller than the prototype. Barney and Wehrli covered taller receivers on a regular basis, just like the vast majority of cornerbacks throughout league history. Furthermore, as shown in post 29 I believe, Murrell2878, who organized this project, stated this was not about time warping players to 2006. This was about how dominant players were in their day. Hell, I can speculate the other way and say that Barney was one tough sumbitch- he played in the 1960s and 1970s. Time warp to the 1960s, and Owens might wet his pants. While I'm on Owens, does anyone think Owens might be a team wrecker in this tournament? Could some of the voters think that in an all-time team tournament that Owens would be especially goofy and demanding of the ball? Just please consider that. You are mistaken about the Bobby Mitchell angle. I asked Murrell about this issue because it came up right before the game threads started. Murrell had no nickel back. I basically wrote to him (it may have been via a PM) to the tune of, "Hey dude. You have no nickel back. How will your team stop offenses when they put three wide receivers on the field?" He told me that is not allowed. Also, two tight ends on the field at one time is a no-no. Also, three running backs on the field at one time is a no-no. (Originally, I had planned to put Faulk, Johnson, and Kelly on the field at the same time. Faulk at WR and Johnson and Kelly in the backfield.) Turned out all of that stuff is not allowed. So, Mitchell in the slot? Not happening...unless Wolfe Tone took out Sharpe or Owens and went with this formation- Bo Jackson at wide receiver, Sharpe or Owens at the other WR spot and Mitchell in the slot. And that would be simply ludicrous because Jackson didn't line up as a WR. Therefore, your entire paragraph about Mitchell in the slot is incorrect and potentially was very damaging to my team. I noted that Wolfe Tone's lead was increased after your detailed post. To borrow a line from champion69 or championjets69 or champ69 or whatever his name is, you posted MISINFORMATION. (The preceding sentence was meant humorously. Again, I appreciated the work you did here. But to be fair, it was off base big time in spots and was really unfair to me and my team.) I'll touch on the second half of your post a little later.
Position-by-position breakdown Cakes' player on left, Wolfe Tone's player in middle, my decision on the right For matchups that I do not feel are even debatable I have bolded my decision. Roger Staubach-Brett Favre- Staubach Marshall Faulk-Bo Jackson- Faulk John Henry Johnson-Bronko Nagurski- Nagurski Paul Warfield-Terrell Owens- Warfield Jerry Rice-Sterling Sharpe- Rice Jackie Smith-Dave Casper- Casper Winston Hill-Art Shell- Shell John Hannah-Randall McDaniel- Hannah Bulldog Turner-Dermontti Dawson- Dawson Larry Little-Joe DeLamielleure- Little Bob Brown-Erik Williams- Brown Jan Stenerud-Mark Moseley- Stenerud Reggie Roby-Sammy Baugh- Baugh Tombstone Jackson-Reggie White- White Bob Lilly-Cortez Kennedy- Lilly Buck Buchanan-Eugene Lipscomb- Buchanan Charles Haley-Jack Youngblood- Youngblood Bobby Bell-Greg Lloyd- Bell Dick Butkus-Mike Singletary- Butkus Jack Ham-Maxie Baughan- Ham Lem Barney-Dick Lane- Lane Kenny Easley-Steve Atwater- Easley Brian Dawkins-Merton Hanks- Dawkins Roger Wehrli-Eric Allen- Wehrli That's Cakes 16, Wolfe Tone 8 overall. That's Cakes 13, Wolfe Tone 5 for matchups which I deem non-debatable. I threw Wolfe Tone a bone at punter. Baugh's punt stats are real fancy and I'm not in the mood to see what the league average was back then. Those numbers could probably be adjusted for the era, but I'll give it to him. At this point, Cakes should probably get your vote, but I'll look at some other factors. Players out of position (this can mean a player is out of position completely or that the player has been placed at a position by his TGG "coach" at a position he did not play on a regular basis, but may have played it a game here or a game there): Cakes- 0 Wolfe Tone- 1 (Atwater was a free safety) Any significant Xs and Os mismatch stuff: Since WT doesn't have a true strong safety, the Cakes' tight ends could be a major factor if Maxie Baughan has trouble covering them by himself. Now I'll look at the backups. Go check out post 35 where I have explained where the backups come into play. No significant difference between Cakes' backups and Wolfe Tone's backups. Again, I think I have presented a fine case for my team here.
