If we could trade Vilma for a good young 3-4 end I'd take the deal in a minute. We're not going to get a NT or a DT that might become a NT though, those guys are just too rare and too much in demand. What I wouldn't do is bundle Vilma and the 25 and Coles to move up and try and find that NT. As other people above have pointed out that would be a coin-flip flirting with disaster. This franchise likely does not suffer the total 2005 collapse if Terry Bradway didn't seriously over-commit resources to getting D-Rob. The 13 turns into Ty Warren, who would have been just fine as a DT in a 4-3 and the 22 turns into Eric Steinbach. The 4th round pick is all gravy from there. What the Jets and Bradway did that year was to delude themselves that there was no real talent between 13 and 25 or so and so it made sense to bundle a bunch of value and move up for a "sure thing." Of course D-Rob was anything but a sure thing as he had never been a star player at Kentucky and minus a week-long combine did not project as a star at the NFL level. What we've gotten for our trade up was a good but not great player and he's not enough. Two first round picks in a year should give you an all-star caliber player 4 years out and we didn't get that. Editing to say: the combine is the most over-rated event of the NFL year and it does a lousy job of sorting out who actually is going to be good. I don't give a crap about how high you can jump in your skivvies with a crowd of people standing around watching. If the NFL was a skivvyhigh-jumping competition that would be different of course. The combine's sole purpose should be to move people down. Defensive back who runs a 4.65? Cya later. Guard who can only do 13 reps? Bye. Defensive lineman who trips all over himself in the shuttle? Get a job. Other than that the only upwards movement should be to fill the spots of the droppers. If a player has it in his heart to be great then he was great in college ball. D-Rob is not going to be great because he hasn't been more than good since high school. No amount of combine display changed that fact. He came in as a mid 2nd round pick and that's where he should have stayed. We'd be really happy with him if he'd cost us the 53 pick instead of the 13, 22 and 116.
Like other posters have already mentioned, I have no issues with trading Vilma and/or Coles, but this trade idea is a bit much. I believe this ship has passed. Last year may have been the year this regime could have taken the gamble of trading for the # 2 pick. Tangini and company were new, we had the picks to bargain with, and Bush was a once in decade type talent that would at the very least keep the seats filled with excitement. They apparently flirted with the idea up until the final seconds but ultimately decided the price was too high. I don't foresee them trying to do that again in the near future.
Trading up for a high pick is a move that usually fails. In basketball you can do this and survive because you only really need 7 good players on a team to compete every year. In football you need 5 times that many to be consistently good.
Coles may have rambled a bit at times, but I would never view him as disruptive or unhappy. Gosh, practically anytime you throw him the ball he lays himself totally on the line to catch it. He certainly is not the best all-time Jets receiver, but he has a heck of a lot of guts. I see no problem with keeping him a couple more years. The trade mentioned; I would not like. The cost is way too high and does not fit the Tangini profile.
Excellent post. I agree with the fact that I think some teams and people put too much emphasis on the combine and not enough on production. Of course the player has to be a good athlete, that is not in dispute. However, that athleticism and drive should translate to play on the field. That draft move was designed to make people forget about the horrible off season Bradway had up to that point or at least that is my opinion. I can not see that move as a good one.
In principle I agree with you but I believe the league is rather mediocre there aren't 3 or 4 elite type teams. While I think the Jets have a lot of holes, a game changing type of player that has to be accounted for at all times and game planned for can catapult a team in todays NFL. I don't pretend to know how many freakish talents are in this draft but greatness always changes thing and creates a buzz around teams that champoinships can be built around.
Here are the "game-changing" players as they were regarded going into their drafts and how they and their teams have fared since then. I'm going to go back a decade because 10 years lets us see both impact and keeps the frame of reference current with today. 1997 - No clear game-changing player with Orlando Pace coming the closest. Pace is an all-pro LT. 1998 - Peyton Manning, Andre Wadsworth, Charles Woodson. Manning is an all-pro, Wadsworth was an injury bust, Woodson has been very good but would not have been worth a multi-player trade-up. 1999 - Ricky Williams. Fell to the 5 on character questions but he was clearly the only game-changer in the field that year. Was not worth a multi-player tradeup as the Saints discovered to their chagrin. The Dolphins later made the mistake of giving up 2 first round picks for him (conditionally but condition fulfilled) and they have suffered as well. 2000 - LaVar Arrington was the only "game-changer". He didn't change the game. 2001 - Michael Vick. Immensely talented but not worth a multi-player tradeup. 2002 - Julius Peppers, Quentin Jammer. Both proved out and might have been worth a multi-player trade-up. 2003 - Carson Palmer, Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson. Palmer would have been worth the tradeup, Rogers busted out, Johnson proved out but not worth the trade-up. 2004 - Eli Manning, Larry Fitzgerald, Sean Taylor, Kellen Winslow. Not worth it, maybe worth it, not worth it, near-bust. 2005 - No clear game-changing player. 2006 - Reggie Bush. Jury is out. So in the last 10 drafts there have been 16 players give or take that have looked like game changers. 4 or 5 of those players (PManning, JPeppers, QJammer, CPalmer and maybe LFitzgerald) would actually have been worth a multi-player trade-up to get. 3 other players actually were traded up for in this manner. Ricky Williams, Michael Vick and Eli Manning. Of the 3 teams that made those trades none profited from them. It's just not worth it to trade-up for a game changing player because the depth you lose is always quality depth and you might well be giving up LaDainian Tomlinson, Champ Bailey or Philip Rivers as a result. Those are all guys who went the other way in packages in those 3 deals. Think about it.
1.25, Vilma and Coles???? to Detroit????? I dont think so. Oakland and Detroit are taking Russell and Quinn, cleveland prob wants Peterson, and that leaves Tampon Bay. 1.25, our second, and Vilma gets us to 4. thats acceptable, and works because TB needs a MLB like Vilma, and we dont...
No... it really doesn't, and I don't think this deserves an explanation. It's a Duh Herm/Bradway type move. Santana Moss like move... No thanx Ellis
Don't forget Keyshawn Johnson was also a can't miss receiver who we used the overall #1 pick on. Not sure if anybody has mentioned that yet. He was a decent player but certainly a waste of a #1 pick. Especially when Marvin Harrison went at #19. It just goes to show what a crap shoot taking receivers in the first round is. Especially to give up players to do it. Calvin Johnson could blow out a knee in training camp and his career would be over before it starts.
Damn, man, you are smokin' with this thread, especially the edit part. You've got DRob nailed. Not sure about trading Vilma though. We've done okay in F/A, so I want to stay where I am now and look for BAP.
Tom Moore and Manning have as much to do with Harrison as Harrison.... Did you miss Keyshawns performance in the Rose Bowl..? In College he looked like a man among boys...And in the Pros you got exactly what you thought you were getting a great physical wideout that lacked elite speed. Keyshawn was the only man in the NFL that could make Ray Lucas look like a quarterback.... Going further, look at the totality of his work in comparison to NFL History. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyshawn_Johnson He's a number one over all.
I totally agree. Somebody recently made a post out of high 1st round selections and how many of them became just average or even flat-out busts. It'd blow your mind. So let's not do anything stupid here fellas. We've done okay so far in F/A and have some decent "journeymen," let's just see where things go on draft day and see who the BAP is as the number approaches.
My flame retardent suit is still in the dry cleaners, otherwise I would have started a Randy Moss thread. Moss has been a reliable top performer when surrounded by high character players he respects. He and Chad remain close friends and have great on the field chemistry. Belichick has always loved him and tried unsuccessfully to pry him from Oakland on the cheap earlier this month. Moss wants to play with a contender. He'd make Coles and Cotch that much better and fiinally provide the Jets with a legitimate deep (and red zone) threat. Someone who can reliably stretch the field as Moss can would further positively impact the effectiveness of our running game as well as clear out the underneath passing lanes which are always so clogged for us due to the absence of a deep threat. He doesn't carry the usual risks associated with drafting a WR in the 1st round. Flame away......
Coles(Off. Leader of the team along w/Chad) Vilma(One of the Def Leaders) 2 of our top players in their prime, both proven Pro Bowlers, and a high draft pick for an unproven, untested rookie WR is probably not the best deal for the Jets. And drafting a WR in the top 10 isnt a guarantee, or even close to one in recent draft history. If you just go back to 2000 and look at most of the big time "can't miss" WR's drafted in the top 10...Peter Warrick, Travis Taylor, David Terrell, Koren Robinson(made 1 pro bowl but his career has been disappointment), Charles Rogers, Reggie Williams, Troy Williamson, and Mike Williams. Not one of these players would be considered premier at the WR spot, and only Robinson, R Williams, WIlliamson and M Williams would even be considered average.
I'd be willing to do it because I believe Vilma doesn't fit the scheme. We could easily replace him by moving Hobson inside. Next, Coles has already come out and said he wants to retire in the next couple of years, and has been bitching about how hard EM's camps are. The swap of firsts is standard procedure. CJ is a guy I'd give up alot to get.
I hate when people mention trading two of our proven players. We just turned the team around to 10-6 and some of you want to trade away good players? We should be talking about trades that we would DEFINATLY benifit from. The trade is way too risky for a rookie who hasnt proven anything.
