Re-Evaluating Pennington

People are acting like Pennington has a history of fucking up and turning in bad records, that's what I don't get. Any time he's played close to a full season we have made the playoffs, the only thing that has stopped him has been injuries. So if he's healthy, I don't see the wisdom in changing QBs at 4-4 and going to a rookie.

There are very few guys that step right in and become successful QBs. People forget that after Aikman's first year Dallas gave up a #1 to draft Steve Walsh in the supplemental draft, that's how confident they were in Aikman. They also had a wealth of draft picks from the Herschel Walker trade and no free agency to break up their team, oh yeah, and Emmit Smith. Give any QB that line and Emmit Smith and I'll take my chances.

It's funny how the same people who are accusing me of putting an individual ahead of the team are the ones ready to tank half a season to look at an individual, just a different one.

 

I suppose that is directed to me, so I guess I will respond.

Even when healthy, he has never beaten the Patriots. Never, not once, zero wins. We play them twice a year. So somehow playing a QB that is guaranteed at least two losses a season is playing to win? Playing a QB that history has shown can never complete a season is wisdom? It works both ways, if you appeal to positive history, then he has loads of negative history. He can't play in the cold, the wind, against top defenses, or in big games. It's as if the team has won in spite of him, rather than getting wins for the team he sort of just manages and is along for the ride. I don't think Pennington can actually win a game on his own.

I don't consider starting Clemens tanking the season, but even if it was, you need to look to the future. As I said before, I don't believe one cent has the goods. Just hypothetically, look at it from my perspective. If you didn't believe Penny could get it done, would you start Clemens? I can put myself in your shoes and understand why you think the way you do, but you seemingly refuse to respect my opinion at all. I've already said we should agree to disagree on whether Pennington is good enough or not, but you're still going on about it.

 

1. First off Pennington has beaten the Patriots, so you might want to check your facts.

2. He hasn't proven he can play the season, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't even try. If John Abraham was still here, you would want him on the bench all year because he's going to eventually get hurt anyway? If he gets hurt, we will worry about that when it comes, but if he's the best player and he's healthy he should play until that changes.

3. He's won 2 playoff games, and took the team back from 1-4 one year to a division title. Yea, never won a big game.

4. He's won 4 games this year, and only one of those wins did they have a good running game. 2002 he didn't have much of a running game, he won games then. 2004 he didn't win without a running game much, but that's because they had one of the best running games in the league, so he didn't need too. He's done it before though, and there are no QB's in the league who can win by themselves consistently. The closest is maybe Vick and McNabb. Maybe Manning, though we've seen what happens when he gets pressured a lot. It's hard to do.

5. The only way I would play Clemens is if I felt that putting him in would give us a better chance to win games right now. People on this board keep praising Mangini because he plays the best players, regardless of loyalties, contract, etc. Taking out Pennington would be going against that.

 

Good post man. I especially agree with the bolded part. I get the folks that getting fed up with Penny. If he comes down with another shoulder injury I'll have to cut ties with him too. You can't keep going to the well in that case. I felt that way with J. Abe as well. But for now I am satisfied with the belief that he had a bad game, and we have a very avg - below avg team. A little more patience would be a good thing. :up:

 

As NYJ38 pointed out, they have beaten the Patriots with Chad. Actually it was at New England in the cold and wind, and it was a must win game for the AFC East title, which we won because of it.

The following two weeks after the New England game, also in the cold and wind, Chad was QB when the Jets beat 12-3 Green Bay and Brett Favre and then Indy and Peyton Manning and Indy 41-0 in the playoffs.

So we're winning with our juggernaut running game and overpowering defense?

I agree with you here, one on eleven would be rough. He would at least need a miniature Ditka on his side.

You can't get so wrapped up in the future that you lose sight of the present. We're 4-4, I can't believe so many people just want to bag it already and play for next year. Things change so fast in the league now, you can't get preoccupied with next year all the time. You have half a season to play this year.

The thread is called re-evaluating Pennington so that's what we're doing. Stop if you're done, that's fine with me. But you haven't backed up any of your reasoning with any facts, no accurate ones, anyway. If I felt that Chad wasn't getting it done, I would pull him like you would. But if someone told us in camp that we'd be 4-4 without much of a running game and not a good D, I'd say he's doing ok. So I wouldn't pull him, not when Coles and Cotchery are having their best seasons and are our best weapons on offense. So I see your point of view, I'm just asking you what it's based on.

 

Italian Seafood,

In your evaluation of Penny are you doing so in the context that this is a rebuilding year for the NY Jets? Do you see our overachieving 4-4 record as a sign that we may make the playoffs and be a force in them? Do you think that making the playoffs and being severely outclassed as a good thing?

To me - the record this season means nothing to me. It's all about setting up our team for future success. Getting a couple of W's is good for the kids confidence, but I don't mind taking a step back in order to take a step forward. Walking the fine line between doing your best today and doing your best for tomorrow is something that franchise's must do. Given all of our teams obvious holes - it only makes sense to lean more towards tomorrow.

 

This is a rebuilding year, might as well get Clemens the experience.

Out with the old, in with the new.

 

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This is a rebuilding year, might as well get Clemens the experience.

Out with the old, in with the new.
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barring injury pennington could still play for another 5-10 years, Clemmens may aswell be traded because he was drafted only as a secondary plan if Pennington never got back from inujry

 

I'm not going to pretend to be a Chad fan, this year I felt if he was healthy he would be a very solid QB for this team. New O, easy schedule we could win a significant portion of our games with him and the young players would get a chance to play with a veteran leader who would show them the way.

The other side of this is are we progressing on O? Is Chad healthy? Do we tie up 10 Million a year long term on him? Clearly our O has hit a wall, whether it's a blip or something else, it's hard to tell. The bye should be a good indicator. Everyone gets a rest and gets to review where they are, the team gets an extra week to prepare for the second half of the season where the good teams seperate from everyone else.

I'm not a big believer in either Ramsey or Clemens but if the management believes Clemens is a vialble franchise QB and we look bad the next couple of games he has to get some playing time down the stretch and the management has to evaluate how valuable Chad is to this team the next couple of years.

If Chad comes back refreshed and strong and the team looks solid I think the Chad supporters on the board will have a very strong argument that this is he's team for the next few years.

 

Yes Man & Tan positions are set in stone for several years so long as they do not steal money from the NYJs treasury or commit some either kind of felony

 

I think people make too much out of rebuilding these days. The league changes too much from year to year to just say you're going to take it on the chin for a year or two and hope that translates into future success. Maybe if you're a desolate team with no talent, but we're strong in some areas and rebuilding in others, as most teams are every year. Remember we went from 1-15 to the AFC title game in two seasons because there was already talent in some places, and we had a good staff come in to round out the roster and get the most out of them. That's what they're trying to do now. Of course with a new coaching staff we're in a transitional year, but that doesn't mean we can't be or shouldn't try to be competitive. That means playing your best players, and if Chad is the QB who gives us the best chance to win then he should be playing.

To answer your question, I do feel it would be more beneficial for our young players and coaches to be in important games late in the year, perhaps the playoffs. If they managed to get in and come up against the elite of the league and lose, it's a good measuring stick for what needs to be improved for next year. Certainly more productive than playing out the string and hoping to get lucky in the draft.

Chad is not nearing retirement. If he stay healthy, he gives us a chance to win for the next few years at least, during which time Clemens has the luxury of learning the ropes. Ideally if he's good enough, he can take the reigns over time and we have Chad as a competent veteran backup by that time. But the objective all the way along, to me, is to take your best shot at winning the games as you play them.

 

So I guess every team should get rid of their starting QB when he plays some bad games like: McNabb in Philly, or Grossman in Chicago, Delhomme in Carolina, Plummer in Denver. All these QBs have played like shit at one time or another during the season. If you want to talk about the worst thrown passes look at Mcnabb during the TB game...he threw two of them to Barber for TDs! We wouldn't have 4 wins if it wasn't for Chad. I think we need to stop trying to use those stupid so called trickery plays with Smith...they no longer trick anyone!

 

He did. Check the stats - yea, I know they won those games (barely, against 2 lousy teams), and ask yourself how many wins a team can have with quarterback play like that.

 

I did check the stats. 58% completion, and 2td's 0int vs. Miami. 72% completion, 1td 1int, against Detroit. The game was "barely" won because our defense can't even stop a team filled with zombies right now.

The only stat that matters is the W. But I guess you need to see a ton of yards instead.

 

Any way you slice it they will find something to bitch about and pine for the backup. It's the simpleton approach, the other guy must always be better, by process of elimination. When Vinny was playing everyone wanted Chad. Chad plays, everyone want Clemens. If Clemens plays and has a bad series there will be a million threads asking why Brad Smith isn't the QB. You have to figure the coaches who work with these guys every day will put the right guy out there.

 

No in this case we spent a #2 draft choice on him so we have to find out if he is the real deal or not so we can plan for this & future drafts

 

Right and we spent a #1 on Chad, who is in the prime of his career and has proven he can win. It's possible to keep two QBs on the team, Clemens will have his time to learn and his time to play, now is just not the time at 4-4.

 

And why do you think that is? Because you can't just pull QBs in and out, they are central to the whole offense. It throws off everyone else when you do that, the O-line, the WRs, etc. Coaches understand that. You think Chad will never get nicked again and Clemens won't get a chance?

 

Well I would say the #1 reason was the Herm factor of being afraid to play what he considered untested players