Actually, that is ridiculous. Boston doesn't need to do that becase they ALREADY HAVE relievers that can get outs. If the Yankees did this discussion would be moot. I'm sure there are stats somewhere that tell how many games the Yankees lost after the starter left with a lead or in a tie game situation last year BEFORE Chamberlain was brought up. I know they have gone 20-2 last year and this in games he pitched since he was brought up.
Well, here's what I was able to determine from historical data on MLB.com: In a total of 522 appearances by Yankees relievers last year (the entire season), 21 losses were attributed to the pen, and 5 of those were Scott Proctor and his shoulder held together with duct tape. The pen loses far less games than the starting rotation over the course of a season. On any team. EDIT: Yankees starters lost 47 games last year.
Yeah, Manny Delcarmen did a great job of getting outs yesterday. :smile: That's not the point, though. The point is, if good relievers are more important than good starting pitching because of the "criticality" of those late innings, then given the choice, you'd want your most talented pitchers in the pen for those critical situations as opposed to the rotation. That means you put Beckett in the pen. If, however, you are a semi-rational baseball fan, you would realize that Beckett serves his team much better by being a front-line starting pitcher. The difference with Joba is that ignorant* fans and columnists have only seen him as a reliever. But if you can see why Beckett should be a starter, then you have to understand why Joba should as well. Why? Because all innings matter. If a typical top-flight starting pitcher also equates to a dominant setup man, you're replacing the starting pitching of 20% of your games with a replacement-level starting pitcher. Go look at the #5 pitchers around the league. There's a reason why the BEST non-closer's win share last year was 10. And why that win share is the same as the perennially league-average innings-eater Tim Wakefield. Josh Beckett's win share was 19. Sabathia's was 24. And if the Yanks are replacing say, Moose, with Joba's performance in the rotation, all things being equal, there should be that many fewer games that will be close enough for the bullpen to blow. And let's put this into the proper perspective, too. Bullpens - even the shitty ones - protect their one run leads far more often then they don't. And a Joba-less bullpen isn't automatically shitty. * - I'm not calling you ignorant in a negative sense. I just mean that there are fans who lack the information about Joba as a starter. Most fans haven't seen him start and so don't know what they're missing... and that's what they're basing their preference on. All they know is that they'll miss him as a reliever. It'd be like a sheltered kid refusing to trade in his Atari 2600 for the XBox 360 because he's never heard of the the XBox and what if it's not as good as the Atari?
this post is gold Cappy. +1 in my book. Any news on Posada lately and his bum shoulder? How about Giambi? It sounds like our team is falling apart already. jeeeez
Sounds right to me. Let this guy wreck as many at- bats as possible over a course of the season. However, I do think we're going to see problems when he goes to the rotation and he isn't as dominating as he is when he's throwing gas for one inning. I don't know if the Yankees can stay with the plan given the inevitable outcry from the media and fans, but lets hope they do.
I honestly feel confident that for the first time in my life, the Yankees won't cave to media/fan outcry/backlash when it comes to Joba. Looking at recent history: They let Torre go They hired Girardi over Mattingly They brought back ARod Walked away from the table in the Santana sweepstakes when the price was too high They held to the Joba rules last year and again this year As long as Cashman is in charge, I think we're looking at the front office doing what is best for the team long-term, over what they do in the short term. I like it. A lot.
The job will (hopefully) go to Melancon, or they'll just go out and buy a guy like K-Rod. Joba's a starter.
Those people are morons. Cashman doesn't listen to morons. I mean, really, who can reasonably expect him to put up a 0.38 ERA in a rotation? If THAT is what people are comparing him to, their opinion should go right out the window. Jake Peavy had the best ERA of any full-time starter last year at 2.54. Lackey was the best in the AL at 3.01. I suppose that is a more fair comparison, although realistically, I would be happy with a sub-four ERA. In some ways, I almost hope Joba comes out and gets torched in one or two relief appearances. It happens to everyone sooner or later... but if it happens while he's in the pen, maybe the outcry won't be so loud. Not that I think the outcry will change anything, though. It's just annoying to hear.
Where do you get your logic from? Nobody said they were more important. What I said and continue to say is that if the Yankee lineup can get a lead or keep a game close until the starter is relieved then it is critical that the relievers keep the lead or keep the game close so that the best lineup in baseball has a chance to win. What can't you get about that?
No, Cashman listens to himself and acts on results. If the Yankees are better with Chamberlain pitching 3 or 4 times a week rather then once a week, take a wild guess which he will be doing? In fact, take a guess why he is in the bullpen now and not starting. It's not because of his innings count for this year. They could just as easily have started him in the rotation and moved him to the pen later in the year when it would be even more important to have him there. Do you think they really prefer Kennedy over Chamberlain in that 5th spot? If I were to bet on why I would say it's because they don't trust anybody else they have to play that setup role when the game is on the line. There won't be any outcry if they replace him at the deadline with somebody who can do the same job. My guess is that is what they are hoping they can do and why he is in the pen now. BTW, you do realize, don't you, that the reason the Yankees won 125 games in 1998 was because the game was effectively over after the 6th inning when they would march out Nelson, Stanton and Rivera with LLoyd thrown in from time to time?
And guess what he's been saying the Yanks are better off doing time and time and time and time and time again? This makes zero sense. It would be even more important to have him in the pen later in the year, but they're doing it at the beginning of the year, because Cashman will do what's best for the team... except when it's most important? Huh? They're limiting his innings at the beginning because they have five healthy guys in the rotation. You think if Moose went down in ST with an injury that they would've given that spot to Igawa instead because "they needed that setup guy?" Joba is there because, yes, he fills a need, but not because it's what's best for him or the Yanks long-term. It makes sense right now. But only because of the innings limit. If Joba were free to throw 200 innings this year, I can guarn-god-damn-tee that you wouldn't be seeing him in the eighth. Now, though, it makes sense, and it gives them time to find somebody else. Melancon, Sanchez, Ohlendorf, Bruney, Britton, etc. There are plenty of guys who are going to get their chance this season to audition for the role of setup. What YOU aren't getting here is the full picture of how moving Joba from the pen to the rotation affects the team. I get that it is "critical" for relievers to keep the lead or whatever in the later innings.... what you aren't getting is that it is even MORE critical that the starters don't put the team in a hole in the early innings. In other words, your bullpen situation becomes much less "critical" if your starter is handing them a 7-3 lead, as opposed to needing perfection because your bullpen is coming into a 7-6 or 7-7 game. Coupled with the fact that even shitty bullpens convert most of their one-run situations, and the answer becomes even more clear.
Wow. And you realize that the 1998 starting rotation was first in the AL, right? Their rotation had an ERA of 3.81. Their bullpen's ERA was 3.76. That's ridiculous. You DO realize, don't you, that the reason the Yanks were flat-out DOMINANT that year, and not just good, had a helluva lot more to do with their rotation than their pen, right?
Unfortunately, you will get the 7-6 lead more often than the 7-3 lead. As Alio pointed out earlier the bullpen lost 21 games last year before Chamberlain was called up. The 1998 bullpen won 24 games. See the difference? Do you see why it's more important to have those kinds of guys pitching 3, 4 or 5 times a week instead of once?
I agree with you that Joba SHOULD be a starter. But have we really had any good explanation why he's not already? I really believe that if Rivera's out next season they'll goto Chamberlin as the closer. He does have the right mind set that it takes to be a closer and certainly has the stuff to be a great one. But I feel almost cheated not getting to see him in a starting role.
Damon, lf Jeter, ss Abreu, rf Rodriguez, 3b Matsui, dh Cano, 2b Betemit, 1b Cabrera, cf Molina, c Mussina, p Giambi out due to the cold weather, might play tomorrow in KC (although with rain in the forecast, might have another day off). Molina is in so Posada can catch Hughes tomorrow afternoon.
Did they not limit his innings last season? Why don't the same rules apply to any other young pitcher? It doesn't add up.
My lord. Do you know why you will get the 7-6 lead more often? Because you want to waste talent like Joba's in the pen instead of the rotation! Yankee starters won 65 games in 2007. You think it's bad that the pen lost 21? Well the rotation lost 47. That means more than twice as many games were lost because you could even get to the bullpen with a chance to win. In 1998, the rotation won 89 games. Oh, and by the way... that vaunted 1998 bullpen? They still lost 11 games for the Yanks.
