Patriots cheat again

Discussion in 'National Football League' started by 74, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    I'd rather be dead than be somebody that sits here and cries because other teams are more creative and act rather than react.
     
  2. Greenday4537

    Greenday4537 Well-Known Member

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    Let's pretend for a second like I haven't. So what? Why does it matter?
     
  3. strngplyr

    strngplyr Well-Known Member

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    You can dress up a duck and call it a chicken as many times as you want, it's still a duck.

    No matter how many different times you call it cheating it still won't be.

    Cheating is breaking the rules, no rules were broken, no rules were even bent. It can be heard watching the game tape that Vinovich uses the stadium-wide PA system to announce to both the fans and the defense to "don't cover #47" or "don't cover #34" because they are ineligible and have declared themselves as such. These announcements were made 10, 7, and 7 seconds before the ball was snapped.

    In the confusion of the moment, to Harbaugh, it may have felt like they announced it and then Brady snapped simultaneously, but that is not the case. Count out loud to 7 and 10. That's nearly 25% of the play clock and exactly 25% of the play clock. Harbaugh then found it more appropriate to knowingly take a 15 yard penalty over calling a time out to figure out what was happening.

    The rules state that 7 players must be on the line of scrimmage and that the 5 middle are ineligible, not that they are required to line up together.

    To borrow from this article: http://www.footballbyfootball.com/column/hot-mess-nfl-rulebook-strikes-again

    [​IMG]

    The blue arrow, #47 Michael Hoomanawanui, lines up at left tackle but is the first player on the left side of the formation on the LOS, the red arrow, #34 Shane Vereen, is essentially in the same position that the right tackle would occupy for players along the LOS, but he's not on the line. He is only allowed to block or catch a backwards pass and then run.

    At least that's how I understand it. 7 players on LOS, interior 5 are ineligible by rule, or rather, everyone but the 2 outside players are ineligible. More than 7 can be on the LOS but you forfeit a receiver by doing so.
     
  4. JetsVilma28

    JetsVilma28 Well-Known Member

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    Haha you guys win. The play was totally normal and legal, it was an old classic football formation.
     
  5. strngplyr

    strngplyr Well-Known Member

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    It was anything but normal, but it was legal, doubt its even an "old" formation, pretty sure its new.

    But its the others teams coaches and players jobs to know the rules as good as the offense and their coaches. The refs look at who lines up on the LOS every play. The defensive players should have done the same. When you see nobody on the defensive right on the LOS and everyone on the defensive left on the LOS you should know that the interior players are ineligible. The first player on the defensive right eligible by rule, without needing to be told, became the Tight End who aligned next to the LT, which is only weird because the LT lined up next to the center.

    It's not illegal or cheap to be better prepared. The pressure of the game caught them not knowing their fundamentals as well as they should have.

    Once again, nobody is saying its old or used all the time (except for one guy), but that doesn't make it cheating.

    The forward pass used to be a once per game type of play, too, and it caught everyone off guard. Everything was brand new at one point and a lot of it became the staple of the game we watch. It still wasn't cheating, though.
     
  6. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    Totally normal? Of course not. Legal? Absofuckinglutely.

    Jon Harbaugh was confused by something he'd never seen before. Rather than admit he was tricked, which we all know to be true, he whined that it was cheating. It's one thing to feel that way in the moment when you were fooled and confused but another to push that bs when it has been disputed.
     
  7. Barry the Baptist

    Barry the Baptist Hello son, would you like a lolly?
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    The Music City Miracle was something we'd never seen before but it wasn't illegal

    I'd hardly say the Patriots cheated but it just shows how desperate Bill is to gain a competitive advantage which is perfectly legal.
     
  8. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    all the Music City Miracle was was a forward lateral -- that's been done many times; nothing new or unique about that play.
     
  9. Barry the Baptist

    Barry the Baptist Hello son, would you like a lolly?
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    The context in which we've seen it and I disagree on it being a forward lateral
     
  10. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    But you could argue any big play in a game was new and unique based on the context of the game.

    Then it was a backwards lateral and legal, which we've seen many times before. That it worked is why it is a historic moment, not that it was unique.
     
  11. The Waterboy

    The Waterboy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, go ahead and shove your cheese up your ass. When Vereen came in and Kline went out it was a substitution, by rule the defense is to be allowed enough time to identify and substitute. As I stated it was on the refs for not allowing them time to do so. The rule is on the books in an attempt to keep it a game of best players against best players rather than a game of who can rush in other players and snap before adjustments are made. I didn't count the seconds at the time and I can not find video right now but if the refs did actually tell Harbaugh they would allow more time on future drives they must have realized they did not allow enough time on the first drive it was done.
     
  12. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    In 5 years we will laugh at this as increase in the pace of the game and deceptive substitutions will become as normal as the play action pass.

    I thought they were brilliantly designed plays and even as a Patriots hater and a fan of the way the Ravens do things, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the Ravens for this as it was gamesmanship. Was it deceptive? Of course but plays are supposed to be deceptive..
     
    #72 BrowningNagle, Jan 12, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  13. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

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    Harbaugh did not complain he didn't have time to substitute, just that he didn't have time to identify the eligible and ineligible players at the line, so there wasn't an issue with not being given enough time to make a substitution.
     
  14. Bellows1

    Bellows1 Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant play call, this is what separates the good teams from the average. Know the rules, use the rules to your advantage.
     
  15. CJLang

    CJLang Well-Known Member

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    According to Peter King, Saban ran this exact play in OT this year.

    BB is smart enough that he uses things he learns from other great coaches.
     
    IDFjet likes this.
  16. JetsVilma28

    JetsVilma28 Well-Known Member

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    I know I said I was done, but I have to say something about this.

    The last play in your pictures #3 is the formation we are all talking about, not 1 or 2. This is a unique play, first of it's kind, because you have never seen a wide receiver line up inside a tackle like this before. Vereen is the RT because he has now declared ineligible, Gronk is a wide receiver standing inside the tackle and 1 yd off the line of scrimmage (not sure how you could call the position Gronk is standing in "the backfield"). Basically, you have a eligible wide receiver standing inside a tackle, not sure if that has ever been done before; save maybe special teams "garbage" formation. And finally, the LT (or wide receiver standing on the line looking like a lineman) is uncovered because everyone on the defense sees him as a LT and not an eligible receiver.

    This is how football was meant to be played, quick snaps out of brand new formations; it's the right way the game was meant to be played.
     
    #76 JetsVilma28, Jan 12, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  17. IDFjet

    IDFjet Well-Known Member

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    I don't see this as desperate as that usually has a negative connotation. I'd call seeking a competitive advantage as doing a good HC job in the NFL. Maybe you meant BB is so "driven to gain a competitive advantage".
     
  18. New England Patriots

    New England Patriots Well-Known Member

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    Randall Cobb lined up inside the tackle behind the line multiple times yesterday.

    Edit: Additionally, often times a WR goes in motion and the ball is hiked when he is in the same spot as Gronk in this shot. What's the difference? I'd argue you could find this formation multiple times per game.
     
    #78 New England Patriots, Jan 12, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  19. JetsVilma28

    JetsVilma28 Well-Known Member

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    Gronk, is clearly not behind the line. He's on the line a yd off the line of scrimmage inside Vereen who is now playing RT.
     
  20. New England Patriots

    New England Patriots Well-Known Member

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    Contending that his statement that "there's nothing going on between us" had been truthful because he had no ongoing relationship with Lewinsky at the time he was questioned, Clinton said, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.
     

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