2 more guys I'd have ahead of manning. You realize the reg season is very different than the SB, right? Chicago would have crushed Miami. Miami faced Chi at home on a Monday Night, they didn't face jim McMahon. They had everyything on their side, that wouldn't have happened in new Orleans. Marino had duper and clayton who were average WRs Marino made to look much better. He never had a reggie Wayne or marvin Harrison. Harrison was a young WR when Manning took over, it takes guys time to get it going. He was the same guy pre-Manning as he was w/ Manning that first year, sure as Manning grew and Harrison grew they would put up better #s but harrison was off to a good start in his career w/o Manning. Garcon is a beast b/c he is a beast. I see immense talent in that guy, of course a great QB will help bring that out but he was incredible against us. Of course it was wayne's fault, it's never Peyton's fault. Now you know what route reggie was supposed to run. i guess it was the WR's fault moments earlier when Peyton was nearly picked off and also the WRs fault when he interfered w/ the DB to prevent another INT. Does Peyton do anything wrong? Garrett/Snell is about a wash Maynard had a much better career than Taylor
I'm going with the guy who actually saw them play... sorry Junc. The idea of Len Dawson and Bobby Layne as top 10 All tiem QB's has ever come up in the minds of 95% of the board. As far as Bradshaw, I'd have Jim Kelly ahead of Bradshaw. Kelly never gets the credit he deserves but he was the K gun. One of the knocks people have on Namath and Favre is their INTs yet Bradshaw threw more then his share as well.
I understand that but keep in mind Winston loves Namath and there are people today that have watched Brady and manning that think Manning is better. Namath and Bradshaw played in an era where they threw more INts, favre has played his career w/ the passing offense friendly rules.
No offense junc, but you change things to suit your argument. "Duper and Clayton were average recievers"? Made better by Marino? Meanwhile Manning had Harrison and Wayne... The implication here that the WRs Manning had would have done just as well without Manning? So which is correct? As you even said, in this case, you are comparing two different eras, this era, of hands off the WR, vs. the eighties, when guys like Duper and Clayton were putting up numbers against more lax DB rules. So Marino can make receivers great, but Manning can't? How does that argument work? Why can't it be a combination? Both Marino and Manning had solid WRs. The combination of the QBs and those solid WRs resulted in great years playing together.
They put up 38 points against the Bears defense. Only twice all year did they give up more than 20. Duper and Clayton were as good as Reggie Wayne. Harrison was off to an okay start to his career. Once Manning got going Harrison's career took off. How much have you actually seen of Garcon. He's good but he's not a "beast". I guess Manning didn't have anything to do with the game Garcon had against us. Collie had nearly as big of a game. But it didn't have anything to do with Manning right? You say Garcon is a beast but he dropped a pass in the SB that he shouldn't have. It was crossing route. It's not that hard to figure out what route he was running. Did he run thru the route like he should have? The answer is he did not. If he had he would have caught the ball. Based on what? Stats? Maynard played in a passing system, Taylor played in a rushing system.
I don't change anything. I think Duper and Clayton were average WRs. Duper even w/ Marino only had 4 1,000 yd seasons, the guy didn't even get on the field until Marino was there. Obviously the great QBs will make their WTRs better, I never aid Manning doesn't help make his Wrs better but talent wise watching Duper and Clayton compared to Wayne and Harrison I don't think it's close. Wayne was the ONLY WR who gave revis any trouble at all this year. manning also played w/ Faulk, Edge, Addai- all MUCH better RBs than Marino ever played w/ Manning had Clark, Dilger, Pollard- Keith Jackson was the only TE in that neigborhood. It's not just the WRs. manning has had a SB caliber team most of his career and he has just 1 title and 2 apps to show for it AND he got the benefit of a home title game in '06 when they played in the WC rd and this year they faced the 5th and 6th seeded teams.
Jim Kelly shouldn't be in the conversation with Bradshaw. No offense to Jim Kelly. He played on great teams, innovatively coached teams and fell flat even when he had the superior teams in the big game. Bradshaw was a clasic down the field QB who threw INT's but made huge downfield plays in big spots in playoff pressure against great competition.
Yes but the reverse of that scenario ruins your theory. In light of the fact that the only two receiving talents Marino had were Duper and Clayton, no reliable TE (hell, Marino barely ever threw to the TE it seemed) and no running game to write home about, should mean that Duper or Clayton, or both, saw double coverage. Yet they got open, made eight Pro Bowls between them, and had some pretty good years. Hell, didn't one of them catch like 15 TDs during Marino's monster year. It was all Duper and Clayton. Throw in the beginning of teams using the West Coast offense, where Miami was more of a vertical, quick strike team and you can see why the eras are hard to compare. If they were average, then the Dolphins would have really shit the bed. But to flatout say the Duper and Clayton were just average is wrong. The two parallells you can draw from Marino and Manning is they both have great pass blocking lines and were rarely sacked.
After Duper and Clayton Marino had Irving Fryar and Mark Ingram. Fryar was great and Ingram was good.
They had a great night, that wasn't happening twice. That game would have been uglier than the pats game b/c Chi wouldn't have coasted like they did against NE. Reggie Wayne was better than both Duper and Clayton. Actually once manning got Harrison he had another similar year to the previous w/o him then as BOTH grew up as players they took off together. Of course it was another players fault but if the play is completed for a TD then Peyton gets all the credit. Obviously the QB and WR were not on the same page, why is that all on Manning? Did you not see the scared Manning on that drive? he almost threw an INT moments earlier then threw the back breaking pick to end the game but as usualt w/ the Manning backers it's someone else's fault. Pretend Tom Brady made the same mistake in a SB(I know it's hard to envision that but pretend) then tell me what you would think. Manning has alot to do w/ Garcon and collie producing but these aren't bums off the street. They are very talented players and you can see that when you watch them. i was aware of garcon very early in the year when he showed some flashes before having some big games late. Garcon did have a drop, peyton threw a back breaking INT. Players make mistakes. Stats are all we have to go on w/ Maynard vs. taylor as neither of us saw him play. One guy is in the HOF, the other is not. Maynard had more opps in a passing system but he also had more weapons around him to take recs away. Sauer was considered better but he just didn't play long enough.
Of course I loved Namath he and Jurgensen were the two greatest pure downfield passers of their generation they changed the game to a large extent. Namath doesn't rank with the greats for obvious reasons, he came into the league badly injured and played long ball. He still has one of the highest if not the highest YPC in league history. He actually has a higher YPA average than Tom Brady. Think about that on 50% completion % he was moving the ball down the field as far as Tom Brady completing over 63% of his passes. That's with the QB not being protected, OL not being able to extend their arms, DE able to go to the head of the OL and lead with the head on the QB. Not to mention the WR weren't protected. Also the hash marks were further apart which was another disadvantage to the passing game.
Fryar and Ingram were good WRs, they were not great. Fryar was great in 1994 w/ Marino, he had an average career overall. Not what was expected from a #1 overall pick. Ingram made one of the greatest individual plays in SB history in SB XXV but he was nothing more than an average WR. he was even average w/ Marino.
If Marino plays the same way he did in the MNF game that game is MUCH closer. And there’s no way to know whether he would have or wouldn’t have because he choked in the AFCCG. Clayton was an amazing WR. Wayne is as good as he was but definitely not better. Harrison’s numbers happen to improve the year Manning comes into his own. How ironic. Harrison had two years w/o Manning and was okay at best. Wayne cut the route off. Was Manning expected to know that Wayne was going to do that? If Wayne had continued on he would have made the catch. Garcon is good, but he’s not a beast. Stats are not all we have to go on. Not when you can read and do research. Taylor had Fred Arbanas, Chris Burford, Curtis McClinton, Mike Garrett and Frank Pitts to compete with for receptions.
Manning lost another big game, I don't care about how well he played overall, the fact remains the Colts were expected to light the Saints up, which means scoring more than 17 points. holding the Colts offense to 24 points is a tremendous feet, and if the Colts were the powerhouse, brilliant offense they were supposed to be if you believe the hype, 24 points shouldn't have been enough to beat them. so even with his defense doing their job against the best offense in the league, Manning still couldn't win the game. that's his legacy.
There's no way Miami was going to beat chi again, that team just steamrolled through the NFC playoffs. They weren't going to be stopped by anyone. Clayton was a decent WR, he wasn't amazing. Wayne isn't amazing either but he's better. Wayne has been a starter for 7 seasons, Clayton for 10 and wayne already has more 1,000 yd seasons and only ONE of Clayton's rec seasons would be in the top 6 of Wayne's. Manning and harrison made each other better, as they both improved so did their #s. You don't think harrison puts up big #s w/ another QB? The DB jumped the route, even had Wayne cut it off it would have been difficult to stop the INT. he may have preveted a TD but ho do we know whose fault it was? Maybe manning made the wrong read? Garcon played like a beast against us and at times against others. I think he's going to be a big time WR for peyton. Arbanas' career high in recs was34 and he only got into the 30s twice. lammons career high was 45 and he was in the 40s twice. He only played w/ Burford 3 seasons, he averaged 43 recs those years. Sauer averaged 52 in his years w/ maynard. He played w/ McClinton 4 seasons- McClinton averaged 21 recs a year, Matt Snell averaged 28 recs a year playing w/ Maynard. Garrett played 4 full seasons w/ taylor and averaged 34 recs a season, Boozer wasn't much of a threat to catch passes. Pitts averaged 13 recs a season w/ taylor, Bill Mathis averaged 15 Bake Turner was also a threat in the pass game. KC had nice weapons but we had better weapons.
Yet they made a SB w/ those QBs. Talent wise he wasn't BUT Joe had his career derailed by injuries. Dawson had the more consistent, great career.
