NE: 2001 SB run: 16 PPG allowed 2003 SB run: 19 PPG allowed Indy: 2006 SB run: 12.8 PPG allowed Manning played 8 games in a dome and no bad weather games until the AFC Div playoff in NE. Again, it's meaningless. A QB putting the ball in the right spot w/ a quick decision and pass can set up a receiver for YAC. Much like Sanchez's throw to Keller the other night that almost resulted in a TD. You don't get more points for throwing the ball for more yards through the air.
No, but you don't say "Sanchez made the play for a TD" you say "Keller made a great play by making someone miss and broke a tackle for the TD" (if that play had resulted in a TD)
Debateable. Brady threw more because he had a mediocre running back in Laurence Maroney while Manning had an elite one in a prime Edgerrin James in 2004. You can't assume that Manning would've had the same YPA, etc. if he had to throw as much as Brady did and carry an unbalanced offense. Manning also already threw 2 more picks than Brady did despite considerably less attempts. Brady led his team to a better record, more points scored, threw for more yardage, more TD's and less INT's than Manning did. Manning averaged more yards per attempt and that's about it. I'll take Brady's 2007 any day. It's also arguable that 2007 was a career year for Brady. It's the ONLY year he's had very good offensive weapons to throw to. Same can't be said for Manning and his '04, that looks like a big career year.
Sanchez's quick read and quick, accurate throw set up Keller to make that play. That doesn't show up in a boxscore.
So, now we're at the point at which I have to keep repeating things until you understand. That's fine. Some people are just slow. Note: that is not intended as a personal attack, just a general statement of fact. I'm a patient man, so I'll keep going for your edification. Please address the reasons for suggesting he didn't "le" (I believe you meant led) the drive. Wow, you acknowledge that Brady hasn't led his team to a GW FG. We're making progress here. I'm not minimizing it. He's accomplished fantastic things, which I have acknowledged. I'm simply contextualizing it and evaluating it rationally. As I said, it's still more than Manning has done. However, as I also said, it's not by the leaps and bounds you seem to see. He hasn't taken his team on his back, he's been solid and efficient in a more effective system than Manning's. No, and he played well in that SB. He also lost. It's not meaningless when Philly has the ball with a chance to win at the end of the game. It WOULD have been meaningless if Brady had led a drive or taken enough time off the clock that Philly never got that chance. Please refer back to my argument as far as WHY Brady is great in that system. If Brady would be great in any system, why didn't he achieve more success at Michigan? Why wasn't he better evaluated out of college? Is it possible that the Patriots saw tools they wanted out of him because he fit the system Belichick was trying to implement? You're right, and they all thrived under Belichick's system. Michigan? I'd love to take you through a lecture on the difference between the two, but it would be a waste of my time. Perhaps you can sit in on a 3rd grade class? God bless those backs and that offensive line. Great playcalling, too. And, of course, a QB blessed with a solid mind and patience. Actually, I said I was careful not to denigrate him by calling him a "system QB". They need each other. Brady and the Pats complement each other better than any QB and team I've seen. It's awe inspiring, and a big part of why he'll be remembered as the best QB of this generation. I'm just able to separate the two and recognize that the argument isn't as clear cut as you'd like to think when you examine the situations he and Manning are in. Please name another team that's gone 11-5 and missed the playoffs. I fully believe that, had they made it, New England would be one of the more dangerous teams in the playoffs. This with injuries to some of his offensive weapons. He went 11-5, just like Tom's first season, but the tiebreaker broke differently. He won 5 of his last 6 games...just like Tom. I'd argue his stats were even better, in part because the QB has had a more expanded role in the New England offense in the past 2 seasons. Of course, Brady didn't win a SB under those settings. I don't like numbers. I do like numbers. It's not all about numbers. It IS all about numbers. Which is it? I know you are, but what am I? Great throw, even better catch, exploited a gassed, overachieving defense well. Fine, fine, but are you sure you want to play the lack of knowledge game with me? Oh, I could criticize Peyton all day long. I'm simply responding to the idiotic argument that he's not close to Brady, and that he's number 3 behind Ben. Clearly. It's all about the QBs with you. Yes, Chad was a better QB than Favre last season. The Dolphins did a much better job using him than we did with Favre. You seem to be under the impression that a gameplan is just a loosely connected series of plays put in the QB's hand. Have you ever played the game? I know exactly which side I'm on. I've been clear about that all along. Brady is a better QB than Manning, and will be remembered that way, but to suggest he's THAT far ahead is absolutely foolish. You idolize him and build him up as though you already have his Fathead on the wall. What does that have to do with anything? You made the argument that Manning has never led his team to a GW TD in the postseason. He has. Brady hasn't. Your point above is irrelevant to the point in question.
He had a better TD% and Rating as well. He is more likely to throw more INTs because he went down the field more wheras Bradys passes went underneath. Either way both years were great but Manning had the better season.
Sure I suppose. But the pass difficulty was much less than the throw he made on the sideline to Clowney from his own 7.
I don’t think his goal was to leave it up to a 45 yard FG in the snow. He got lucky Vinateri made the kick. I have never wavered from my opinion that Brady was not the one that made that drive happen. But he wasn’t the reason they were in position to win. It was still a Vinateri 48 yd FG that won the game. That’s not a gimme and again he got luck Vinateri bailed him out. He was 1 for 4 for 4 yards on the GW FG drive. He didn’t do anything to help set it up. It matters when the argument is being made that they won because of Brady. I mentioned the 5 FGs that Vinateri made in the 2006 AFC Div game. They held the ball for 37 minutes in the game because they ran the football and ate up clock. Much like the Giants did in SB XXV. Brady’s role was minor in this game. Brady’s system with Weiss was short quick passes with the idea that getting it out of his hands quickly would limit the mistakes. Manning is a down the field passer. There’s a reason why Brady’s postseason INT rate skyrocketed once Weiss left and there became more emphasis on the passing game for the Pats. The first one was not on him either. It was on Vinateri and the Defense. It matters in this discussion. The play was made by Watson not Brady. But yet, Brady is given all the credit for this play? C’mon. Anyone would realize that play wasn’t a TD because of Brady. Manning didn’t do anything different than Brady has done in end of game situations. He got his kicker in position to win it for him. Unfortunately Manning had Vanderjagt in that game instead of Vinateri. That’s right. Brady after getting the ball in great field position only led them to FGs when a TD would have sealed the game. This is what he’s done his whole career and this time it backfired. of Brady’s completed passes on the season went to RBs and TEs. Their WRs weren’t a large part of their offense and they were still successful. Sounds like the system worked. Okay. Again Indy’s defense has never been that great. That has nothing to do with Manning though. The only reason why I brought it up was because of their injury (and Rivers not being 100%) is the only reason NE didn’t lose that game. Manning still completed 68.7% of his passes for 400 yards and 3 TDs. His 2 INTs were one less than Brady’s the following week. I know you understand the game of football…but I don’t understand why you don’t get the aspect of the team. You’re saying that Brady is the sole reason they drove 80 yards for a TD but aren’t acknowledging that they marched down the field on Faulk’s and Welker’s YAC. And if that's not what you're saying I honestly haven't seen it in your posts. Manning didn't play a bad game. He was 17 of 32 1 TD and 0 INTs. He had them in position to win but again a Vanderjagt FG was missed. He moved them but the team lost two fumbles that shut down drives including one that was deep in NE territory. This is ridiulous. Brady has had to settle for FG attempts after FG attempts. He put the game into the hands of the kicker and you applaud that. Manning did the same thing and you blame him for the loss. It was late wwhen I posted that. He threw a TD pass that put it out of reach for the Chiefs. He owned the Pats defense in the 2nd half. Brady didn't lead anything. He dumped the pass off and put the game on the legs of Redmond, Brown, Wiggins and Vinateri. He made one tough throw that whole drive while the Rams were in a prevent defense. Manning did more to win SB XLI than Brady did to win XXXVI. Hayden's INT return for a TD happened when Indy already had a lead. BTW - Brady also benefitted from a Defensive TD. Ty Law intercepted a Kurt Warner pass and returned it 47 yards for a TD that gave the Pats a 7-3 lead in teh 2nd qtr. Without that the Pats don't win. Led a drive is a bit much. He made one good throw to Faulk where Faulk dove and caught the ball then rolled for a 1st down then a nice throw over the middle, but again Faulk had to make a nice catch behind him. Other than that his other two throws were screen passes. He got sacked because of the pressure. What would you want him to do force it and have it turn into a pick 6? You complained about Favre forcing passes then expect Manning to do the same? However in this situation it was a blind side blitz wher the TE completely missed the block. It's not that any of us think Brady is not worthy of being in this discussion. It's that you think Manning's not. I think if you polled most people they would take Brady along with his system. I think Manning would be sucessful in any system. That's why if its reversed, I don't think Brady would be successful in Indy's offense.
I’ve been thinking about this for a couple days now, and the more I think about it, the farther I think Tom Brady slips down my All Timers. Now I agree he’s accomplished some amazing feats; single season TD record, 2x Super Bowl MVP, 3x Super Bowl champion, but his well is shallow. Once you move past those, there isn’t much there. I’m not saying those aren’t phenomenal in their own right, because they are, but they don’t, in my view, make him elite. When I say elite, just to be clear, I’m referring to All Time. He will obviously go down as a great, but I just can’t see how he could replace anybody in the top 10. Who is he going to move? We’re talking about the likes of Montana, Marino, Elway, Unitas, Favre, Staubach, Baugh, Graham, Starr, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, Aikman and even Kelly(reluctantly). I think he’s going to be remembered as a great, but I just can’t see him on the level of the above mentioned. To me Brady is like Derek Jeter, great, but not quite that great. On the cusp if you will. Now I’m not saying Manning is in the company yet, but being 4th all time in passing yards at 33 years old is what I’d call “on the right track.” I’m sure a lot of you will disagree with me, and that’s fine, this is just my view. I know some people don’t think stats matter, but I believe the contrasts in theirs do. Manning is only a year older then Brady, so it’s not farfetched to believe they have the same amount of time left. That said, look how far ahead Manning is. 45,628yds to 26,448yds. 333 tds to 197 tds. We aren’t talking about a couple of touchdowns and yards here and there. We’re talking about drastic difference. 19,000yds and 136 tds. Those numbers can’t be ignored. I’m tired, so if this jumps around a bit, sorry.
Just to go thru your list of QBs that you think is better than Brady I have to take some off. Brady is better than Favre, Starr, Tarkenton and Aikman. I personally don't think he's better than Jim Kelly, and if Vinateri hadn't bailed him out in SB XXXVI he may be on the same level as Kelly in how the two QBs are perceived.
You keep repeating nonsense and insults. you have noc ase here aginst what I have been arguing. Once guys start picking out typos I know they have conceded. It is by leaps and bounds when you look at the entire body of work. I weigh postseason more heavily than the regular season. They both have had teams around them capable of winning titles, Brady has led his guys to 4 SBs while peyton led his guys to 1. That is a HUGE difference. It would be one thing if peyton was playing great and others weren't but Peyton has played poorly in postseason. Peyton is a great QB, he's just not in Tom Brady's league. That's not an insult, only a handful of guys to ever play the position are near Brady's level. Philly got the ball back down 3 w/ :46 secs left, no timeouts at their own FOUR yard line. Please explain how they had a chance? Brady had alot of success at Michigan but michiga had a deal in place w/ Drew Henson to guarantee him playing time b/c everyone thought he was the next big thing. Brady beat OSU, did Peyton ever beat Florida? Isn't it interesting how in 4 years Peyton couldn't beat UF or win a Nat'l title then he leaves and they win it all the next year including beating UF along the way? Dick Rebein is the one who begged BB and pioli to take Brady, this wasn't some great revelation by BB. He got lucky that Brady was a bit of a late bloomer and was hidden somewhat in college. The only WR who ever thrived was Troy Brown his first year or 2 w/ Brady and they thrived b/c of the QB not the system. Mike Holmgren doesn't have a great offensive system in Seattle? Brady was a good college QB, college is different than the NFL- very different. he was in a bad spot w/ Drew Henson and ended his carere w/ 20 TDs and just 5 INTs his senior year. Not abd for a guy who wasn't good, right? Nice way to deflect out of the fact comment. You have been insinuating he's a system QB the entire thread. The Denver Broncos were 11-5 in 1985 and missed the playoffs. NE would have been one and done. You think they would ahve beaten Baltimore? Not a chance. They beat 2 playoff teams all year- Miami who we know was a weak div champ and SL who had given up late in the year after they clinched the div(remember Philly beat them 48-20 weeks earlier then AZ beat them in the title game). They were crushed at home against Pitt, NE wouldn't have made any noise. They had an easy sched which inflated their record. The #s aren't black and white, you have to dig deeper. Now it's b/c the Cards D was gasses:rofl: They were ont he field for 33 mins in that game and 16 of the 30 in the 2nd half and 7 of the 15 4th qtr mins. That is an incredibly weak excuse. Anyone who minimizes what Ben did demonstrates a lack of football knowledge. It's ok to think my statment about Manning not being close to Brady is idiotic but how about you back up your argument instead of just attacking me? I would much rather have Ben lead my team in a big spot than Manning. I'd rather have Manning weeks 1-16 but once postseason starts it's not a contest. Are you saying Chad wasn't better than favre last year? W/ alot less talent and the same coaching staff Chad less us to 10 wins in 2006 so the coaching argument is another weak point. Yes I have played the game but not all of us were NFL players like you I idolize Brady? I can't stand the guy but I'm honest about his ability. Instead of attacking me and typos try putting together a decent argument for your stance on this topic? You'd have a much better chance. manning does have ONE GW drive in postseason, Brady has TWO SB winning drives- which is better? Stop w/ the down the field nonsense. Brady goes down the field plenty especially in 2007 w/ Moss and Stallworth. I disagree, I was more impressed w/ that pass to keller than the bomb to Clowney. Both were impressive but the pass to Keller was timed perfectly to give him a chance to break free and get the first down.
In 2007 his passes to Moss averaged 12.2 yards past the LOS. Clearly Brady's best in his career but Stallworth's average pass catch was 8.8 yards past the LOS. Faulk and Welker caught passes on average .9 yds past the LOS and 4.8 yds past the LOS (they caught 159 passes on the year). He is a dink and dunk QB. The pass the Keller was his second option on the play. There wasn't a timing to it. He checked down to him and Keller made the move to break free and nearly score the TD.
Every Champion has a bit of good luck along the way, it's amazing how good luck seems to follow him. The drive to set up the SB GW against SL was amazing. Vinatieri is useless w/o getting him into FG range- how many SB winning kicks does he have w/o Brady? In the last 2 playoff losses where Indy was one and done(Brady has never been one and done) did Peyton set him up for a tying or winning FG late? Indy had TEN possessions, it was Manning and the O's fault for not getting some first downs and holding onto the ball. he had 2 bad INT games, his postseason INT rate didnt' skyrocket. In 5 of his 8 postseason games he has 1 or less INTs since Weis left. He was great against Oak and the D nearly blew the SL SB until he led that amazing drive. W/o him that team doesn't even make the playoffs in 2001. Manning had 2nd and 2 from the Pitt 28 and took 2 shots at the EZ. Brady would gett he first down and keep the chains moving to get his K a better kick. Everyone knew Vanderjagt was the K version of Peyton Manning so he had to get him closer but he went for the TD and couldn't get him closer. Brady's record is pretty damn good so to backfire one time isn't bad, it's better than the time after time w/ Manning, right? 2006 postseason: Completed 22 passes against the Jets: 15 to WRs completed 27 at SD: 22 to WRs completed 21 at Indy: 9 to WRs of his 70 completions in the '06 postseason 46 were to WRs(66%) Indy's D has never been that great yet they have allowed less than 2 PPG more in postseason than the "great" NE D. I am not sayiong Brady is the sole reason for any of their success, I believe he's been the biggest reason but obviously he can't do it by himself. He led Indy to 3 second half points(plus OT) in that Miami game, that's a bad game. Stats don't tell the whole story. He had a RB rush for over 100 yds and average 5.1 YPC and couldn't lead his O to more than 3 in the 2nd half/OT against one of the legendary choking D's of all time. He moved them? 10 possessions, 3 points. Brady knew his K was reliable. The gameplan changes when you know you have a Vanderjagt. The yard line you have to get to is different than AV, sometimes you have no choice but throwing to the EZ and 2nd and 3rd and 2 from the Pitt 28 he had a choice and it cost them. Do you really think what Brady did in SB XXXVI was easy? It's amazing how you are minimizing what he did. Manning didn't do much in his SB, he sat back as his D and running game won that game. he made one play in the 1st qtr. Tom Brady must be the luckiest QB ever to have such great players take his passes and make something of them. Peyton just isn't lucky, the poor guy has only had elite offensive talent around him his entire career but those guys can't make plays the way NEs' players can for Brady:drunk: He didn't lead them to the first down, that is the bottom line. One first down wins that game. Brady would be great in any offense. Again, what QBs has the NE system produced besides Brady?
I agree on the Jeter comparison. I'd take Jeter over ARod any day. Manning is the ARod and Brady is the Jeter. I have made this comparison for years. ARod/Manning are great fantasy players and Jeter/Brady are winners. You are so far off base w/ the QB comparisons though. The fact that you put favre ahead of him shows me what I already know. Jim Kelly wasn't close to Brady. Remmebr NE was a double digit underdog to SL, Buffalo was a TD favorite over the Giants and the kick his K missed was w/ the team down and ona chopped up grass field- it was a MUCH more difficult K than AV's.
What has Cassell really done? He won 10 games as a starter w/ a weak sched w/ a team that was 16-0 the year before.
Welker is basically a RB who plays WR, he will always have good RB yards per averages but he utilized Moss well downfield. There was absolutely timing on the keller play. When I say timing I am not talking about lobbing it up in the corner of the EZ, he made a quick read. Excellent footwork, quick read, great delivery that was quick and on time along w/ placed where it needed to be placed to give keller room to make a move.
He was 11-5 (he played the majority of the first game, I don't care that he didn't start) as their QB and hadn't played since H.S.. Are you suggesting (out of curiosity) that the system NE ran had nothing to do with this success?
