Jets are interested in Cromartie?

Uniform Bomber made a pretty good post showing how many tackles he's had compared to other current CB's. I made a post about how CB's are rarely responsible for the type of tackle he shy'd away from. Why not respond to those?

You make it sound like the guy never made a tackle in his life.

 

How quickly do you think we would have a "KILL CRO" thread if he pulled that crap in a playoff game while with the Jets? Please don't try to tell me you would be cool with it.

 

Cro bitched out on that play. The entire front 7 of the SD defense also got completely manhandled by the Jets o-line/FB/TE leaving Cro responsible for a tackle that a CB should never be responsible for. Would I be happy if I saw that shit? Hell no!

If your defense is in that position you've likely already lost the war.

 

Crom pushes Greene just a little and maybe Weddle has a slight chance to slow Greene down enough for others to help.

make a fucking attempt.

Cromartie doesn't fit the mentality of this team. Revis, Lowery, and Strickland all tackle and play physical. Why bring in some douche who doesn't?

He's more problems than he's worth, and has had one very good year.

 

You saw that Cro had as many solo tackles as Revis Christ last season, right?

His production went as the Chargers pass rush did. Rex knows how to bring the heat. I would love to have a guy opposite Revis who can gobble up INT's when the ball goes there way.

 

You said it yourself... his problem is attitude. He wouldn't commit to trying to make a play there. It has nothing to do with his tackling ability, but everything to do with the fact that he made a conscious decision to not even attempt the tackle. He's not the kind of player who'll throw himself under a bus for the good of the team.

The biggest problem most people have with Rhodes is that exact kind of attitude. Why would we unload Rhodes and then turn around in bring in that loser?

I agree totally the guy is talented, but I feel that we can do just as well either drafting a corner or going in another direction. I certainly wouldn't give up a draft pick for him.

 

I don't think the context of those tackles are the same as His Holiness.

Revis takes down Brandon Jacobs on his own... Cro doesn't do that.

I would bet that the Greene play has happened a shitload more than that one isolated incident. We don't know because we don't constantly watch Charger games.

Yes, he can cover well, but he does that shit on this kind of defense - its Rhodes all over again... or Rhodes times two... this board can't take that.

And in this new NFL, you need CBs who are willing to tackle a big fuck, or at least get him slightly off balance. just shove the 220 lb RB. make the attempt.

he'll do it here too. Just because a player comes to a new team doesn't mean he immediately becomes what we dream him up to be. I've seen that way too many times.

If he was a signable FA, I think I'd be on your side. But a 2nd rounder in this draft? I'll take my chances on finding a guy who can fill the position instead.

 

Do you know how many of those tackles were on wideouts and how many were on runingbacks and TEs? Because when Rex sends the house, they're going to be throwing screens. And they won't be throwing too many to Revis' side of the field when we have a guy who shies away from contact like this guy apparently does.

You saw how teams, and particularly runningbacks, were targeting Rhodes for the first part of the season. We need players that not only CAN hit, but WANT TO HIT. This guy fails in that category.

Cromartie wants to play on a defense that attacks the QB because he knows that will put him in position to rack up some nice stats. Do you really think he wants to be one of the guys that is making the punishing hits?

 

Of course I don't know.

I'm not worried about him making a tackle on a screen play. There is a huge difference between tackling someone who is just catching a ball and doesn't have a full head of steam and a bruising RB running straight down hill with a full head of steam.

I'm not saying anything you don't know here.

Does a corner really need to make punishing hits? How many punishing hits did our corners dish out this year?

 

Braylon Edwards also had character issues in Cleveland. He and the Browns organization mutually wanted to part ways. I assume you were completely against the Jets acquiring him since you say you don't want anyone who may have character issues. I don't hang out with Braylon, but so far, it seems like his character has been A-OK.

Good point. However, for me, here's where the difference resides: Rhodes' attitude was/is our biggest complaint about him, and that's AFTER he's had the chance to play for Rex. By all accounts from former/current coaches and players, Rex is someone players want to sacrifice themselves for, which is one of the qualities that make him an awesome coach.

Rhodes had a full Offseason and Season under Rex and still isn't willing to run through a wall for Rex/the team. We don't know if Cromartie would be the same way under Rex; it's possible Rex could change his attitude. At the right price, I would take that chance because of Cromartie's talent.

I agree with most of this, but comparing the physicality of a Safety and a cover CB is apples & oranges. A Safety is supposed to be more physical and a better tackler than the CB -- that's why the player is a Safety; he excels in that area instead of blanketing a WR. It'd be like saying, "let's see what happens when Rhodes is Man-to-Man on Steve Breaston." You wouldn't expect him to cover him like a CB can, would you?

For sure, I don't want any player shying from contact, but when a Safety does it I think it holds more weight, i.e. it's less expected and less excusable, than when a CB does it.

(I also want to note that while he definitely bitched out on Greene's run, we can't definitively say it was owed to his fear of contact (although that most likely was the main reason). I don't wanna sound like his attorney, but maybe there were some other factors involved, e.g. upon approaching Greene, he hesitated and in that split second lost his thought to make a play, or in that split second of hesitation he froze up. Whatever the reasons are, yes he bitched out, and probably will regret it for a very long time. Maybe he learns from it?)

The stats show that Cromartie's tackle total is right in the middle of the totals of the league's best CBs. Furthermore, his game-film shows that he plays physical press-coverage, using his hands to jam WRs, and the ability to stay with them. I agree that "in this new NFL" you need DBs that can tackle bigger players. But you also need multiple CBs who excel in coverage if you want to beat passing attacks like that of the Colts and Saints.

You're right about no one knowing whether or not Cromartie would pull the same shit if he were to come here. Which is why it's a gamble to trade for him. Which is why I originally said that I prolly wouldn't give anything higher than R4 pick for him. If we had 7 or 8 picks, then I'd consider offering a R3 pick. If we could get him straight-up for Rhodes, I'd do that too; at least we'd have a DB with a lot more speed and athleticism who has shown real flashes of brilliance.

My ideal scenario would be to trade Rhodes, acquire Cromartie, and sign Rolle. By doing that, we'd improve the Secondary doubly before even entering the Draft.

 

You make a good point. Not everyone is Charles Woodson.

But the Jets were fortunate to have 3 reliable tackling CBs this year. I don't think anyone wants to bring in a low character guy with a horrible attitude and watch him pull up in a playoff game at home with the game on the line.

That just turns me off to this guy. And he hasn't looked like he did since his rookie year.

 

I never said he needs to make punishing hits. I said he needs to want to hit the ball carrier. I've seen plenty of corners in my day make the old OLÉ arm-tackle that barely slows a back down and possibly racks them up a tackle assist. I'd rather see an all-around technique tackler wrap the guy's legs up at times, and on occasion take a guy's head off if it isn't on a swivel.

Revis looks for contact, but he does it in a smart way. And he gets his licks in when he can. But he's not a guy that will lay a punishing hit. There aren't too many smart corners in the league that will do that. But he also doesn't shy away from contact when the game is on the line.

You can misdirect away from those 2 infamous situations in the Jets' divisional game all you want, but they are a direct indictment of Cro's unwillingness to put his body on the line when it counts.

Nobody was asking him to lay a punishing hit on Greene in the backfield. He's a cornerback. What they probably were expecting him to do, though, is slow SG down just a half a second so that a DL or LB had a better chance to wrap him up. Instead, he pulled up and watched Greene run by. And THEN, once Greene outran everyone to the endzone, this twerp had the audacity to throw a cheap shoulder and risk an unnecessary roughness penalty.

The second instance, all of the marbles were on the table. All of the Chargers knew what was going to happen. I watched every San Diego player fight to get into the gap the Jones plunged through. All but one. With all of the marbles on the table, 4th and 1, instead of plunging shoulder-to-shoulder with his teammates to make an epic effort, Cro stood there like a dickless bitch and watched his team's chances to advance swirl down the toilet.

That's what you want to bring to this team? This is the guy you want playing for the Jets in the postseason? Really?

 

I didn't closely examine the tackling stats for those CBs (the distribution of tackles on WRs, TEs, and RBs), but I'd venture to guess that if you're a cover CB, you won't have as many opportunities or even be heavily relied upon to be a punishing hitter who excels in run-support. The best CBs in the NFL are solid in run-support, and that's one of the things that makes them the best; most CB's aren't really known for/excel in tackling RBs.

On the other hand, playing the run, being a sure tackler and a strong hitter are a Safety's job requirements. It doesn't surprise me that teams targeted Rhodes when they realized that's one of his weaknesses. For a Safety, that shouldn't be a weakness, which is why I'd rather have Cromartie than Rhodes -- Cromartie performs his job requirements as a CB better than Rhodes has performed his job requirements as a S. Do you think it's fair to say that?

Absolutely nothing wrong with this opinion. I love the way Revis and Strickland (and Lowery too) tackled at and within 10 yards of the line.

I guess my thinking is that we damn sure need to improve the CB position, and Cromartie would most likely be an improvement. But at what cost? Again, I wouldn't want to give up much for him (esp a Draft pick this year with our limited picks), but if the price is right, I'd go get him.

 

I must be losing my mind because I thought for sure you said something about making punishing tackles, but now I don't see it. Technique can be taught.

I've admitted he bitched out and he needs an attitude adjustment in that regard. I still contend that he was in a position no CB should ever be in (first play). On the final play he really had no chance to make a play, he avoided a chop block and stood there as the play happened on the other side of the line.

Would I like to see more aggression from him, obviously. I just see him as a guy that could be a huge difference maker with a good pass rush across from Revis. He's not perfect by any means, I think the tackling issue is being overblown and we're losing sight of what we need in a corner. Coverage ability. If he simply sucked at tackling and never did it I'd be more concerned, but he does his fair share of tackling.

Would you trade 8 INT's for some missed/avoided tackles is the question I guess. Obviously there's no guarantee either would happen but I'm thinking potential here.

 

In fairness, I did ask a question at the end about wanting to make those punishing hits, that's football instinct. Not that I want my CBs making the John Lynch spear against RBs that outweigh them in mass and muscle, because it's simply asking for injury.

But I do expect them to tackle, and to make the effort when it's necessary, regardless the size of the ball carrier.

I understand your point about the tackling, too, and I know technique can be taught. But attitude is not as easy to be fixed, and that has direct effect on the player's willingness to fix his technique.

Cornerbacks in a run of the mill defense don't ever need to fix it. They have a 4 man rush and a safety over the top. We send safeties and LBs with such frequency that I don't see how we can gamble on a guy that does what Cro did against the Jets in the divisional game. What I saw from him was the mentality of a corner that doesn't think he needs to tackle anyone but his man.

Would I trade that for 8 INTs? Well, if I had to, I think I could rationalize it. But we also don't need an all-world cover corner like Revis on the opposite side.

One non-Jet cornerback that impressed me in this respect was a guy I ended up seeing a lot of this year. Mike Jenkins of the Cowboys. I wish that guy was available. He's not the greatest corner, not a lockdown, but he is a solid cover man that can play physical at the LOS and can wrap a man up well. He's young, and impressionable, and not so full of his cover capabilities that he won't use that physicality to gain an advantage or pick up a blown play for one of his teammates.

Like I said, I could probably trade physicality for 8 picks, but I'd rather have a Mike Jenkins than a Cromartie.

 

To the point of him being in a position he never should've been in - I disagree, because from the standpoint of being a player, you're getting paid to make plays when the chance arises... scheme problems aside, he WAS in a position to make a play, and his personal instincts told him to pull up and let someone else do it. You can teach technique, but you can't teach attitude. If attitude could be taught, Gholston would've made tremendous strides this season, and Rhodes would've acted like less of a pussbag.

I think in general you're focusing too much on the tackling aspect when more attentions needs to be paid to attitude. If you look at the talent in our DB group last year, there really wasn't much outside of Revis but yet the secondary succeeded for the most part because most of the players (i.e. Smith) played with a tough attitude within the system.

Cromartie is talented and would certainly provide some good coverage, but he's certainly not elite and wouldn't be worth the cost of purchase. You can probably get a corner in the first or second round of the draft who will be just as productive as he is and won't have the mentality he has.

 

exactly.. a majority of the ppl on this board are basing Cro's talent on that one game.. actually.. more like one play.. i for one want him.. as long as the asking price is not too ridiculous..

you have to look beyond what he did this season and what he can do next season..