Is It Time to Bench Geno for Vick?

This is true also. It's on Geno to make better decisions on a consistent basis.

 

He doesn't need to be mistake free. There are no QB's in the NFL that are mistake free. He needs to make fewer mistakes and he needs to be a better QB in the red zone. Marty Mornhinweg needs to be a better play-caller in the red zone. When those three things are accomplished the Jets will be a good team.

 

Tom Brady was a mistake machine in 2001. 21 turnovers in 15 starts. The Pats went 4-2 in games in which Brady had more TO's than TD's. They went 3-0 down the stretch in games in which Brady combined for 1 TD, 5 Int's and a fumble. In the playoffs he had a bad game against the Raiders, fumbling 3 times (counting the tuck play) and throwing a pick. The Pats fell on one fumble, another was erased by a penalty and the officials gave Brady and the Pats a gift on the third.

Comparing Geno to other QB's and saying that everybody who made mistakes early sucked is ridiculous. All QB's make mistakes early. All of them. Some of them have good personnel around them to help pick up the slack. Some of them get lucky. All of them make mistakes.

 

I would be happy to, but I'd ask you to please refrain from being such a dick.

In today's NFL, you need a franchise QB to win. Teams with shitty QBs Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees. With the exception of Brees, those guys are drafted and nurtured by a single team. They were given the rope to fail. They were not yanked or booed with every INT or shitty game. Patience is key, and it's going to take a few years before a QB delivers.

I see a lot of improvement with Geno. I see improvement with his supporting cast, but that remains a work in progress. He's still on an upward curve and we need to be patient. I also don't view our team as being so dominant that we can win consistently with just a game manager at the helm like the Ravens teams from 10 years ago. Holes at QB, WR, and on the OLine need to be filled before we can reach that level.

Every time we give up on a QB, it means we have to start over. Scout, draft, coach, and then play. That is a 3-5 year process. Vick is not a long term answer like signing Brees or Peyton. Haven't you seen that when he has come in? The burst is gone. The accuracy is not there. He might make us better in the short term, but he's close to done and will retire soon. He's Neil O'Donnell. He's Boomer Esiason. He's Brett Favre. Then what? We sign Matt Schaub? Ryan Fitzpatrick? I'd rather suffer through a 4-12 season with a young, ascendant QB than be 8-8 with a washed up veteran. We've done that over and over to appease the Win Now crowd and it hasn't worked.

Starting Vick means we've given up on Geno. It means we have to start scouting for a replacement. We have to spend another high draft pick on a QB. We have to suffer through more growing pains as he learns the pro game. I don't want to suffer through that until we are absolutely sure that Geno doesn't have it. I hope that answered your question.

 

The play calling in the red zone has been bad. Who calls a QB delayed draw up the middle from the 4 yard line? If you want the QB to run the ball in that situation you do misdirection and send him one way while the play goes the other.

 

Geno will certainly be here for 2015 as the backup at least. He's under contract cheap for two more years. There's no way the Jets are going out to get a backup QB at a premium when the guy they drafted two years ago is still on the cheap.

 

There's no question the pick 6 was a terrible play. It got a rookie PR benched after he screwed up also. Geno has to get it together at this point. The situation isn't perfect by any means but he's making it worse. He needs to fix that.

The Jets don't need to fix this. Geno needs to fix this. He's the only guy who can stop making passes a split second late after telegraphing where they are going. He's the only guy who can stop back-pedaling when a DL is in his face and he's going to get caught one way or the other the only question is whether he takes a 9 yard loss or 18.

Geno is a fast runner but he's not quick. He doesn't have the kind of escapability that is going to get him away from a DL or LB once the guy has him square and lined up. He needs to just go down when that happens and it has happened at least twice already this season.

When you're stuck don't make things worse.

 

I agree with your analysis. The bottom line to me is, if Geno continues to play the way he has, he will not be our starting QB opening day 2015. Geno was only a 2nd round pick so if it doesnt work out, Idzik and Co. get another shot to get it right. (which would involve drafting a QB in the first round in all likelihood).

The time is truly now though for Geno, these next 3 weeks might determine his life as an NFL starter in the future. He cant go out there and play a bad game like he did Monday....

 

Oh come on here. Your posts about Vick being a turnover machine clearly implied he was worse or at least as bad as Smith in that regard. The stats say otherwise. His interception totals and percentages are far below Smith's. But I agree fumbles are also turnovers, so...

Let's talk about fumbles. A stat showing VIck's five year total at Philly shows he was credited with 298 rushing carries in that period, 1300 pass attempts, and fumbled 36 times. Meanwhile last year and this Smith is credited with 92 rushing carries, 312 pass attempts, and ten fumbles. (I cannot get a stat sheet breaking down which fumbles occurred in rushing attempts versus pass attempts - I suppose it is debatable whether a fumble is more likely to occur on a run than a pass, but I think so.) Putting aside the run v. pass relation to fumble debate, Vick had 36 fumbles on a total of 1598 plays while Smith had 10 on 406 plays. In other words Smith is more likely to fumble even if weighting a greater likelihood of fumbling on a run is not factored in.

Still even with fumbles factored in, the total turnover rate for Smith is far higher. And if you take Vick's most recent numbers, the discrepancy remains quite significant despite Smith's marginal improvement in interception ratio this year.

No one disputes Vick has gotten hurt too often. But I am not aware that his injury problems are likely to recur. He may be fragile and getting older, but he currently is in top shape.

As for Smith's stats, I previously posted stats showing no material improvement. Yes his completion percntage is up compared to season long last year. That is a function of more short passes. Maybe better receivers as well. Yet his ypa number is exactly the same. I also see his QBR rating has actually gone down. His Qb rating is up because his int ratio is down.

Overall I again submit the stats do not show material improvement.

 

Terry Bradshaw was benched years into his career. Benching Geno in his 'second' season is not a career death sentence.

 

I think everything you say is true. I also believe 100% that Vick will fail if he does not get hurt in the first game or two. People love it when a QB runs around or even breaks a long one, but Vick is also a mistake prone QB--the only difference being that he has 10 years experience. He may win a game or two, but his inaccuracy will eventually undo him, as will his propensity for fumbles and INTs. Vick is what Geno is---a guy with some accuracy problems and a tendency for the bonehead turnover-----except for the durability part. Vick gets hurt a fair amount. I am confident that Geno is starting games at the end of the season. My fingers are crossed that the reason he is is based on merit.

 

Funny with all the Qb's you mentioned you did not include Mark Sanchez. How did holding on to him for four years work out?

 

Do you also ask your dog to stop being such a canine?

This is a bad list of QB's if you want to talk about having patience with a QB fucking it up with the same stupid mistakes.

Manning - As a rookie he was top 5 in the league in passing yards, attempts, and TDs. He also led the league in INT's but was extremely productive to go along with it.
Brady - Sat the bench for one year then came in and won a superbowl when given his opportunity.
Roethlisberger - Came in and immediately played well. AFC championship game as a rookie, Superbowl Champion second year.
Flacco - Solid if unspectacular his first year, much better second year. It was pretty obvious from the beginning he was an NFL QB.
Wilson - Solid decision maker from the get go. Superbowl champion year 2. It was pretty obvious from the beginning he was an NFL QB.
Rodgers - Sat the bench for 3 years then came in and lit up the NFL when given the opportunity.
Brees - Maybe your best example.

Again - the types of mistakes that have me hysterical about Geno right now are independent of the players around him. He's making foolish, careless decisions that have nothing to do with how anyone else on the field is playing.

For example, when we're inside the two minute warning and he slides for a loss near the sideline rather than simply throwing the ball away or getting out of bounds? That poor decision has nothing to do with how much separation the WR's got, how shitty the play call was or how much of a turnstile Winters was. It's a bad decision made by Geno. Period.

Same goes for when he throws the ball blindly over the middle of the field when pressured or he backpedals 15 yards when pressured.

Vick doesn't need to be the long term answer. The narrative that benching Geno means giving up on him is so over used and flat out wrong it's ridiculous. You cannot make a coherent, well reasoned argument to backup that claim. I'm convinced that it's something people repeat because they always hear someone else say it. Geno could possibly be very well served to sit the bench and take things in like an Aaron Rodgers did while he works on honing his game. That's not to say he absolutely would but there's no legit reason, IMO, that him sitting the bench would somehow "spoil" him, let alone absolutely do so.

 

Totally agree. The playcalling in the redzone has been alarmingly bad. But, the double standard that I highlighted was also alarmingly bad.

 

I am not sure if it is red zone play calling, or just poor receiving talent . Amazingly, Kerley is the guy catching TD passes. Kerley is a smurf. Salas is a bit of a smurf as well. Decker has been hurt. Nelson is a non-entity. /and our TEs? Invisible

 

I really dont want to get into the same discussion yet again, but its a slow work day.You actually make some decent points, though. I wasnt sure of fumble percentage, I coudnt find that stat, thank you for bringing it up. I said Vick turned the ball over a ton "as well." That indicates that both QB's turn the ball over a lot.

If you dont think that Vick's injury problems are likely are recur, that is well and good, I applaud your optimism. Michael Vick has gotten hurt every single year since 2008, I'd say its more likely he gets hurt as he ages more, especially behind a mediocre LG.

The stats thing I almost dont want to get into because I feel you made a terrible post. You made a good point that his YPA is the same as last year. And its true that it doesnt show improvement, but it doesnt show regression either. And his Yards per carry are doing from 5 to 4 yards per carry. 4 is still pretty damn good and I would take those numbers all day.

Meanwhile his completion% is up. His TD% is up. His INT% is down. His sack rate is down. W/L record is laughable. Football is a team game. His QB Rating is up and his QBR is down. Most look at QB Rating as a superior stat, but I'll call this a wash for arguments sake.

If you think lower yards per carry and an equal yards per attempt are more important than improved Completion %, TD%, and INT% than thats your perogative. And in that case I can see why you would want him replaced by a better runner.

Edit- I also want to make clear, I'm not 100% percent in the Geno boat right now. It may seem that way, but I'm not. I would be totally on board with drafting a QB with better footwork and decision making this year. But I'm not dumping Geno after 1 bad game. He has improved, and I'm willing to give him some more time. If he has a couple more games like the Bears game, which I doubt he will, I'm cool pulling the plug.

 

Chris Ivory & Johnson are the answers to geno's problems! Use these beast more!

 

Phil Simms also says hi.

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