OJ and Payton were first team 70's all decade, with OJ having the vast majority of votes. Payton had the most votes for 80's all decade team. Harris was actually a Fullback, although no distinction was made between tailback and fullback for the team.
I was not aware the voting was ever made public. I guess I never really thought about it, though. Where did you find that info?
The votes i found on wiki after doing a lazy search. Not the most reputable source, but below site backs up the order.. http://www.profootballhof.com/history/2010/1/23/nfls-all-decade-team-of-the-1970s---offense/ When looking at the 90's and 00's teams, Martin probably should have made the 00 team, even though he was probably better in the 90's. Thurman Thomas had 4 Super Bowl appearances and a longer body of work in the 90's. Terrell Davis during the late 90's was as good as anyone, and had 2 Super Bowl wins. When looking at the 00 team, Jamal Lewis and Shaun Alexander over Martin? Really?
Yeah....looking at the info on pro=football reference, it looks like Harris' wikipedia All-Pro reference is using the UPI all-conference numbers....not the AP All-Pro. Still think that Harris was a more decorated player for his time. Plus the 4 Super Bowls help.
Dude, you've referenced everything but the numbers. Fame and decoration is bullshit. I'll repost the link. Harris was a fullback, so the comparisons don't match up 100%, but he was a first ballot hall of famer who played longer, gained less yards, fumbled more, and was not as complete a back. But he gets in first ballot. Harris getting in, as well as others, validates that Martin not getting in on first ballot is unprecedented. http://www.suite101.com/content/nfl---best-running-back-of-all-time-a279179
You have no understanding of what the Hall of Fame is about then. Harris' stats are not quite as good, but he played in a different era AND was a significant contributor to one of the great dynasties in the NFL, winning 4 Super Bowls. Again, I am not saying that Harris was a better player.....but he was a more significant NFL figure BY FAR.
So playing on a dynasty is all the HOF is about? What the frick does 'significant NFL figure' mean? Those statements make me believe you have no clue what the integrity of the Hall is about. Harris deserved to be first ballot, and Martin was a better PLAYER. Martin is one of the best RB's of all time. His numbers back it up, his intangibles back it up, and his respect around the league backs it up. If you as a Jets fan do not recognize that, i'm not sure what you watched from 95 - 05..
It was a tough class to crack, maybe Franco didn't have as much competition? Curtis will be in next year w/o a doubt. Playing on a dynasty team elevates your profile especially when you are a big part of it so of course that would give him an advantage. Add to it that he won a SB MVP and that seperates him. The one I would have been really annoyed with had he got in ahead of Curtis was Jerome Bettis.
That's exactly it. The wildcards going against him were Faulk and Sabol. They generally don't elect 2 guys in same position in same year, although i don't agree with that approach. And Faulk was a different type of player, possibly the best pass catcher out of the backfield ever. Sabol totally deserved it, i just wish it wasn't at the expense of a player. But to argue Martin doesn't have 1st ballot credentials is just assenine.
How did you draw that conclusion from what I wrote? Martin and Bettis are comparable players (and I'll even agree that Martin was better). However, the object of football is to win games and championships. That goes a long way for tipping the balance. Harris is a 1st ballot guy. I've never thought Martin was first ballot (although I always thought he was a slam dunk HOFer). You're entitled to your opinion. However, Martin (for whatever excuse you want to make) was NOT voted in first ballot, so I am right and you are wrong. You can start a "Hall of Best Players" and enshrine Martin in the inaugural class. I still am baffled how anyone views this as a slight to Martin or the Jets. The Jets have only had 2 players voted into the HOF who played the bulk of their career with the team. Martin will get in next year.
lol, that's not a bad idea. of course you are entitled to your opinion. i just haven't understood your argument as to why you feel he is not 1st ballot worthy... just fame factor and lack of Super Bowl wins (he did play in one). I've put forth some pretty good reasons why he should be. Really i think he's not in due to timing. Having another RB in the class with great credentials, and a great contributor in Ed Sabol taking a player slot. I also feel his low key persona may have had something to do with it. But frankly if it did, that's why i'm a little agitated. I'll ask one final question to you: If Faulk not on the ballot, would you agree Martin is in right now?
I think even if Faulk was not on the ballot, Martin doesn't get in first ballot. He is partly (and to a degree unfairly) viewed as a "compiler". When you look at his resume, 2 things stand out: 1) 4th all-time rushing 2) 10 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. The two things against him are: 1) he never played on a Super Bowl winner 2) among his contemporaries, he was never consider the best RB in the league. Let me elaborate on the second point. Looking at the years Martin played, here are the NFL's leading rusher (denoted with a +) and first team All-Pro (denoted with a *): 1995: Emmitt Smith+*/Barry Sanders* 1996: Barry Sanders+/Terrell Davis*/Jerome Bettis* 1997: Barry Sanders+*/Terrell Davis* 1998: Terrell Davis+*/Jamal Anderson* 1999: Edgerrin James+*/Marshall Faulk* 2000: Edgerrin James+/Eddie George*/Marshall Faulk* 2001: Priest Holmes+*/Marshall Faulk 2002: Ricky Williams+*/Priest Holmes* 2003: Jamal Lewis+*/Priest Holmes* 2004: Curtis Martin+*/LaDanian Tomlinson 2005: Shaun Alexander+*/Tiki Barber* 2006: LaDainian Tomlinson+*/Larry Johnson So when you look at this list, here are the names that appear multiple times: - Barry Sanders - Terrell Davis - Marshall Faulk - Edgerrin James - Priest Holmes - LaDainain Tomlinson Now the point isn't that all of these guys were better than Martin (so don't go jumping up and down about Priest Holmes), but at any given time these players were considered the dominant player at RB. Martin was generally considered a tier (or even half-tier) below the best at the time. Martin is closer to guys like Eddie George and Jerome Bettis. What makes Martin a lock HOFer is that he was in that "next tier" for such a long time. Again, no shame in being a HOFer.....but I have a hard time considering someone who was on the above list a first ballot guy.
So making the All Pro list only once makes him more like Eddie George? lol. I'll give you Bettis, but George? And a stat compiler who played only 10.5 seasons? You have to play longer than that to compile. Emmit Smith publicly stated that Curtis Martin was the only then active player he worried about breaking his record. Had he played longer, he might have. At that point you can call him a complier, but not after 10.5 season. Not that i place emphasis on this, put Martin's All Pro selections below. Plus the Rookie of the Year in 95.. Its not bad at all. 5 out of his 10 seasons, when measured against his peers. Year Team Level Voters 1995 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly 1995 1st Team All-Conf. UPI 1996 2nd Team All-Conf. UPI 1999 2nd Team All-NFL Associated Press 2001 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly 2001 2nd Team All-NFL Associated Press 2001 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers 2001 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News 2004 1st Team All-Conf. Pro Football Weekly 2004 1st Team All-NFL Associated Press 2004 1st Team All-NFL Pro Football Writers 2004 1st Team All-NFL Sporting News Much better argument in this post, and i see where your driving at. We'll have to agree to disagree on Martin's qualifications. Unfortunately with writers solely doing the voting, you are probably correct on this awards shit factoring into the voting more than it should. After all, the awards are also given out by the writers.
It's difficult for me to buy into the compiler idea with Martin because he only played 11 seasons and was a starter for his whole career. He did not have a few seasons at the end of his career where he was a backup and gained a few hundred yards. It is actually difficult for any RB to compile stats. Compiling is a derogatory term usually used with baseball players who have multiple mediocre seasons late in their career which help them surpass certain career milestones. Usually when a running back breaks down, teams don't give him chances to compile. RBs might get one season or two at the most to compile. Marcus Allen had one year late when he wasn't a starter (1997 when he gained 505 rushing yards). That season enabled him to eclipse the 12,000 rushing yards mark and also allowed him to surpass Franco Harris on the career leaderboard. Franco Harris did some compilin' of his own with the Seahawks. His 170 yard season in 1984 put him over 12,000 yards for his career. Joe Perry had a couple of useless seasons late in his career. Marshall Faulk and Jerome Bettis both compiled in 2005. But a running back compiling for numerous years in the way that Don Sutton compiled stats as a baseball pitcher? Nope. There aren't many examples, if at all. To only consider the Associated Press All-NFL team is incredibly unfair to Martin. He was the 1st team choice (Marshall Faulk was the other) by the Pro Football Writers and Sporting News in 2001. Those teams are better in my opinion. The AP team is a joke. There are problems with it every year. Look at the 2010 team. Darren Sharper made the 2nd team (along with 7 other safeties!!!) and all he did in 2010 was play in 8 games and make 16 tackles. I am still planning on creating a thread about how ridiculous the AP All-NFL teams have been but I need to do more research on the voting from past years. I had saved the vote totals a few years, but it appears I have since discarded that data. The Associated Press does a great job of advertising their teams. So great, in fact, that fans are led to believe that the AP team is the only one that matters and that it is official. Actually, it is not any more official than the PFW and SN All-NFL teams.
To be clear, I don't view him as a compiler, but I've heard that label on him (i.e. very good for a long time...never great.....again, not my opinion). I tried to find something that wasn't me trying to make a personal judgment, so I picked the two things that are generally considered a gauge of the best (i.e. season leader and All-Pro.....not that I am defending AP All-Pro as the be-all end-all). Also, to clarify, I think in terms of skills/impact at their best Martin and George are comparable. But clearly Martin was better for a longer period of time. I just feel that Martin was never the player that Sanders, Davis, Faulk, and Tomlinson were (James was more a factor of the system he played in). My guess is if the same poll here were done in a non-Jets fan site, the result would probably be 60-40 against. Which would indicate to me that there is certainly a case to be made for him as a first ballot guy, but he falls a little short.
