Demos, While I agree that training camp practices are more brutal and intense, there is NO substitute for game experience. There is also no way that only a couple of weeks of those practices with the second stringers makes THAT big of a difference. They still work on the game plan, and he still gets to see things at full speed. ...and to be honest, he doesn't look a whole lot better taking his second stringer squad out there in pre season games against opposing second stringers. If he were blowing them away, I might concede your point, but his struggles look about the same even with the guys he's in camp with. ...and those are the guys he IS in camp with.... against other second stringers. True they aren't as good as the #1s, but he's not playing against the other team's #1s either. T Leads me to believe the problem is with tebow himeself. The game might simply be too fast for him to be an effective and consistent passer. Now, with running, all bets are off. This is why it might be a good idea to start working on his running back skills
Yeah, we're getting into those immeasurables here. You know, those intangibles that you just can't put a yardstick on. People like you talk about "two different teams have seen him". Yeah, they have. But look at what some of the players have said. Champ Bailey, a future first ballot Hall of Famer said that he just played harder for Tebow. Von Miller echoed a similar point. Here on the Jets, I'll see if I can dig the quote up, but one of the players was quoted as talking about how things changed when Tebow came into the huddle. They had a different energy. THAT is something that every coach he has ever had has recognized. That IT, is what puts guys over the top. All Tebow really needs to do is fix some mechanical flaws and if/when he does, the sky could be the limit. That's not to say that he definitely will be a good/great QB, but the potential is there. The potential to be much more than a game manager, but a game changer.
CC, we are talking about 2 different things. YES, actual game experience itself is hugely important. There are things you learn there and experiences you gain that you just can't get in mid season practices or even in TC/preseason. I agree completely. BUT, there are also things that are learned/worked on in TC/preseason with the first string reps, that you can't really work on during mid season practices or in games. If your mechanics are an issue, you can't sit there and throw 400 passes a day to receivers in mid season. You can't spend as much time working on looking at the defense on each play and trying to recognize what they are doing. That's what I've tried to explain to you. In preseason and TC, you have time to work on things that you just don't have the time for in mid season. One problem is that the QB is reliant on WRs running the right routes. Most of the 2nd team WRs from preseason are off selling insurance right now. As bystanders, we don't know if the receivers were running the correct routes, if they ran the correct routes the right way with the right timing, yada, yada, yada. This actually applies to both Sanchez, Tebow and McElroy. It's compounded by the fact that everyone was learning a new offense, WRs included. That's one of the reasons that I really wanted to see Tebow working with the firsts now and then. To see how he actually compared straight up with working with the same talent pool.
Hard to say as Tebow's issues to date really have been mechanical. Mark has mechanical problems as well, but, at least lately, his decision making has come into question. In different situations with different coaches, who knows what might happen. Can't remember what the "show" was, but there was a piece on ESPN or NFLN that had QBs like Troy Aikman and others. #1 picks iirc. Aikman talked about how a QBs success has a lot to do with the situation they get thrown into. How things could have been very different for guys like Tim Couch, Carr, etc, if they had gone to different teams. Steve Young became a much better QB after sitting behind Montana in SF. Rich Gannon developed late with the Raiders. You can go back to Plunkett as well. History is replete with guys who turned careers around and "became" much better later in their careers. Important thing is to hang around long enough and not get too beat up in the process. Then again, history is also stocked with guys who bounced around the league for 10 years but never managed to make it the upper levels.
Right, but he didn't get better AT ALL during the 4 months of game time. In fact, he got worse as teams figured him out. You like win/loss records, so if you take more stock in that than anything else, he was 1-4 down the stretch once more teams had video on him. BUT, there are also things that are learned/worked on in TC/preseason with the first string reps, that you can't really work on during mid season practices or in games. If your mechanics are an issue, you can't sit there and throw 400 passes a day to receivers in mid season. You can't spend as much time working on looking at the defense on each play and trying to recognize what they are doing. That's what I've tried to explain to you. In preseason and TC, you have time to work on things that you just don't have the time for in mid season.[/quote] Demos, he doesn't NEED the first stringers to work on the mechanics of his throwing if that is the problem. most of that is done over the offseason, and aside from a couple weeks from a "guru," well... let's just say it is debatable on whether he is making the best usage of that time. It's like in NASCAR, where most of the race is actually won in the garage. A couple weeks of camp isn't going to change that. there is still plenty of opportunity to get to know the starters if you came in as a backup. No, the majority of second stringers AREN'T selling insurance, most make the team as second stringers unless some third stringer takes their job. 53 men on rosters, only 22 get to be starters. Third and 4th stringers sell insurance if they aren't lucky enough to land on the practice squad. 2nd stringers are depth and backups. come on, a guy who blast people for not knowing the game as well as you do should realize that. My point is, even if it isn't quality time with the starters in TC, they still run the game plan. It isn't like the backups don't get a damn thing there. They don't come into the season with the chemistry they would have with the starters if they got the nod from day one, but it isn't as if they go in as total strangers either. Plus, 4 months is a REALLY long time. I'd find it odd if they dropped tebow in there, and pretended like he was there the whole time and didn't devote even a little bit of time to adjust to the starters. There is too much on the line to simply ignore that. OF COURSE they are devoting practice time to that. Plus, tebow still manages to stink it up with the guys he was getting the reps with. Check out his preseason production with the second stringer he DID get all the reps with and then try to tell me his production was stellar... ...and those were against other second stringers, so the inferior cast around him isn't a good argument if you were thinking of going there. Simply put, he's WAY behind where he should be right now, especially for a guy that has about a seasons worth of starts on his record. Fox did that on the first day of camp. It took him a day (actually less) to decide it wasn't even close. He saw that he only had a week and a half to get through camp, and prepare for a preseason, and get them ready for the season. they had to slap together a new defense, and do it with an offseason and free agency period that started like 5 minutes before that. They needed to deal with their offense, sign some players, and probably a million other important things on such short notice that we probably never thought of. Yet we are supposed to treat tebow as the #1 priority for the team, even if he looks at first glance like he's nowhere close to starter material... at least for the offense you had in mind, but you have guys that are able to do the basics. Maybe in a tebowcentric world would a coaching staff bend over backwards to make tebow a success, but they have like 80 other guys to worry about who will be whittled down to 53, and you're telling me they should focus more on the guy who has special needs. Needs a different approach to get around his dyslexia, and therefore needs more hands on experience, which that time comes at the expense of whoever else. Yeah.... I doubt you're gonna see a straight up apples to apples comparison. The NFL world just doesn't care about tebow as much as you do. either figure out how to pass or they'll bring in someone who can. It would work that way for anyone else who has demonstrated inability to master the passing game too. So he IS getting equal treatment as everyone else, it just seems like he isn't because he's under the microscope from the media. Really, it is business as usual.
So because Rodgers developed after a while, so will Tebow? There's no logic to that argument. The Packers also had the luxury of taking their time with Aaron. They had Brett Favre. One of the best QBs ever and hadn't missed a single start in over a decade. Rodgers wasn't saddled with a media circus foaming at the mouth over him or a large and disruptive fanbase hounding the team to start him immediately. Rodgers was able to just keep slogging away at becoming a good QB without being distracted by the lure of major celebrity status. Tebow seems to have finally wised up. He appears to be trying to hide from the media in remote Arizona and started seriously working on becoming more skilled as a QB. Whether or not it's "too little, too late" or not remains to be seen.
dennis dennis dennis.... dont you realize Tebow will out work everyone to become the best? Of course he will be better than rodgers! how dare you doubt the chosen one. The one that inspires everyone to play harder, the one that outworks everyone that ever played the game the one that deserves a spot without ever actually earning it!
Damn, guess its a good thing that I didn't make that argument then, huh ? All the argument demonstrates is that even one of the best QBs in the NFL took some time to develop while sitting on the bench. True, they did. IF they had thrown Rodgers right in during his second year, who knows what might have happened. Perhaps he would have thrown for a comp % of 47.5%. Doesn't matter as my point has been made. Large and disruptive ? I'm sorry, I missed all those people in Met Life who were screaming for Tebow to start right at the beginning of the season. It's kind of like that myth you all have here about the hoardes of Tebowites who came in and took over the forums. How many have there been ? A dozen or so during the entire year ? Newsflash for you, most of those who were screaming for Tebow by the end of the year were die hard Jets fans who were simply tired of watching Sanchez suck ass, and they thought Tebow was the better alternative. Sanchez was so bad, that even ESPN analysts who don't like Tebow were saying that he should start. He's worked on becoming more skilled as a QB from even before he was drafted.
Not really. You look at what he's done in the previous off-seasons while QBs like Brady and Manning disappeared to train. Tebow wrote and promoted a book. Was a very visible promoter for Jockey underwear. Hosted golf tourneys. Appeared on Leno, Letterman, etc. During the lockout while his Broncos teammates organized their own practices, Tebow would occasionally fly in a WR to wherever he was to play catch for an hour or so on a high school field or in the hotel parking lot. He simply hasn't shown perceptible improvement in basic QB skills. He still looks lost trying to read defenses, holds onto the ball far too long, and his mechanics are still bad and slow. He'd regressed to scrambling around the backfield with defenders in hot pursuit for far bigger losses on sacks than if he'd stayed home in the pocket or just thrown the ball away. This seems to be the first season where Tebow's avoiding the spotlight and seriously attempting to become a better QB. I guess all the talk of the CFL finally woke him up...
In reference to the highlighted passage above, you are full of shit. http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/05/19/tebow-joins-teammates-for-informal-workout-in-denver/ Hell, he even held his own version of Mark's "Jets West". That's the thing with some of you all detractors, you DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. And sadly, you don't let that stop you from spouting a bunch of crap that is easily proven wrong.
And here I thought we were finally having a good, real discussion of Tebow. :sad: IIRC, Brian Dawkins had set up the team workouts and Tim didn't show up until he had an open spot in his schedule. He blew in a week or two after the rest of the team started practicing together, participated for a day or two and then left again. As I said, he'd fly in a couple of WRs at his convienence to "practice" with for a little while. Even a week or so of practice between a QB and his receivers isn't nearly enough to build up the rapport needed. It takes thousands upon thousands of throws in practice for them to learn each other, know each others quirks, understand what each of them will do in a given situation and be able to adjust to it instinctively. Tebow did NOT get that work in. He just didn't take his off-season preparation seriously or else he would have joined ALL of his teammates in Denver, not just flown in a couple for a week in Florida because he was too busy to be bothered doing anything else. You didn't prove me wrong. Tebow worked out with his teammates for a handful of days over the months that the lockout lasted. Prepping for the season certainly wasn't a priority for Timmy. He wedged it into his schedule when he wasn't too busy hawking underwear, hosting golf tournaments, appearing at book signings, or chatting with David Letterman...
We were until you had to trot out this BS about not practicing in informal workouts, and claiming that he only flew a WR out now and then to practice for an hour in the parking lot. Dawkins set up the workouts after guys already had off season stuff scheduled. Not Dawkins fault mind you, it was just a strange time. If you notice, Kyle Orton didn't make all the sessions as he also had things scheduled. That's how it was with these "informal workouts" as many of them were somewhat last minute. Actually, it's much different than what you said. Everyone here commends Sanchez for doing Jets West. It would be completely wrong to say that it's a case of Mark flying WRs out now and then to practice throwing in the parking lot for an hour. Do you not admit that there is a huge difference between flying a guy out and throwing for an hour, and flying much of the receiving corps out, putting them up in a hotel and working out with them for a week ? Dude, the only stuff I've put forward so far are Tebow's workouts with his teammates. Haven't even gotten into discussing Tebow working on his mechanics with different instructors. I have news for you, EVERY NFL player does some non-football stuff during the offseason, I don't care who it is. Even guys who are busting their ass trying to get from the practice squad to the game day roster. Let's look at the appearances for the book signings. He did a total of 5 of them, each 2 hours long. Three of those were in Florida near his family home, where he was spending time with his parents and siblings. Of the other two, one was in Denver and the other was 1 hour away in Colorado Springs. I don't know where some of you all get this idea that NFL Players spend every waking moment of the offseason practicing their craft. NO ONE does that. IIRC, the NFL "off season" is over 200 days long. Let's see. 1 or 2 days to go see Letterman. 7 days spent with the family in Florida (book signings). That's 9 days "lost" presuming that he didn't work out on any of those days. Golf tournament was a whole 2 days, Friday and Saturday. That's 11 days. 11 days out of a 200+ day offseason. Oh, the horror. How terrible could Tebow be to waste all that time ? I mean, He should have easily been able to get more Broncos to arrange their schedules to practice with him, or filled those days with more workouts with gurus. This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion with some of you, because you don't bother to bring intelligence into the debate. Nope, according to you, Tim Tebow was supposed to spend every waking moment of the 200+ day offseason working on mechanics. God forbid that he take a couple hours out of a day here and there to sign some books. You're a waste of time just like CC is. Pretty much pointless to even attempt to have a rational discussion with you.
Excuse me. I made a mistake. It wasn't Denver receivers that Tebow practiced with in hotel parking lots. It was his brother, Robby. CBS Sports Tebow spent the bulk of his personal practice time with his brother Robby. Last I checked, Robby Tebow wasn't on the Denver roster. The article points out that "Tebow figures he has spent time on the field with all of them (Broncos receivers)." I've already mentioned the amount of off-season practice time needed for QBs and WRs to develop a good working relationship. Tebow seemed to feel that the previous season's play covered that. Orton had stayed in Denver during the off-season. Although not every Bronco lived there year-round, it's where the highest concentration of players could be found. He was working out with Decker, Thomas, most of the o-line, etc, long before B-Dawk set up lockout practices for the whole team. Tebow simply didn't factor in much real practice time before committing to other things during the lockout. A QB with the work ethic Tebow supposedly has would have focused on doing whatever he could to improve himself and develop better relationships with his teammates. He figured that team practices after the lockout ended were good enough. I'm not familiar with Sanchez's "Jets West" workouts, so I can't comment on the similarities or differences. They weren't doing "two-a-days" by any stretch of the imagination. From what I've read, it was very unstructured and lacked any sort of coaching support. More like a pickup game of flag football than anything real and purposeful... Can you find a single article about Tebow EVER having worked with a QB coach on his own during the off-season (not just during the lockout)? Prior to the draft I know that he worked with QB guru Marc Trestmann (Chicago Bears new HC). But other than that, I have never seen anything. Yeah, but Tebow probably did as much as every other player in the league combined. It was a huge volume of stuff. A lot of it was using his celebrity status to raise funds for his charitable works (Children's Hospital in Manila, etc) as well as the salaries he donated to those causes. That was just the tip of the iceberg. He had a full slate of speaking engagements and other personal appearances as well. Sorry that I can't produce a detailed itinerary for you. Again, most of the proceeds went to Tebow's charities. But it still occupied most of his time. It's tough on us as well. It's hard to talk intelligently with Tebow fans who continually resort to personal attacks. Yeah, given how bad Tebow's mechanics continue to be, he ought to be spending 8 hours a day, six days a week (I'll give him Sunday's off :up with a top QB coach trying to tighten up his throwing motion and get it consistent. While you were making good points (even though I disagreed with most of them, you argued them well) for a while, you have reverted to Teboner-mode, personally attacking anyone who criticizes Timmy. It gets old, dude.
Hey, congratulations, you finally introduced an actual fact into the conversation. You are aware of course that Tebow was working on his MECHANICS. The basic process is that one goes to a QB guru who tries to fix the problems in your mechanics. They'll show you the correct way to throw and they give you exercises/drills to do on your own. For example, back in high school, I was on the Rifle team. We had good instructors who came in and taught us the proper ways to do things, then, after they left, we would fired thousands of rounds practicing what they had taught us. This is the way it works just about any time you bring an "expert" or "guru" in to help you. You have a limited time with them and afterwards, you are expected to continue to work on your own. That is exactly what Tebow did when throwing the ball to Robby in parking lots at midnight. Instead of saying "Fark it, it's late and it's dark", he said "Hey, let's go out and get some more reps". Only in the delusional confines of your's and CC's mind could this be considered a bad thing. I presume that you have a source that will back up that statement ? I find it questionable especially considering the fact that Demaryius Thomas tore his Achilles tendon in February of 2011. As for the workouts that Dawkins set up, you do know that they were pretty much a "last minute" thing, where he sent out text/emails over the weekend asking if anyone wanted to join him on Tuesday and Thursday ? So, I take it that after getting the email/txt during the weekend, Tebow was supposed to drop everything, cancel everything on his schedule, and immediately fly back to Denver for the workout ? Oh, BTW< you do know that these were CONDITIONING workouts right ? I.e stretching, running, lifting, exercising ? Again, you are full of shit and you are talking out your ass, and that's being nice about it. Funny. Not being familiar with the actual facts hasn't stopped you from spouting a bunch if inaccurate crap about Tebow. Why is that ?? That said, given the question that I asked, yes, you can indeed comment on the similarities and differences without even knowing what exactly happened at Jet's West. All you need to know is that Mark invited and brought out the WR corps for a week long camp. That's a hell of a lot different than bringing flying 1 WR out to spend an hour throwing in a parking lot, which is what you claimed Tebow did. Again, you have no idea what they did, but since it's about Tebow, that doesn't stop you from talking, unlike Mark and Jets West. ANd yes, of course it lacked coaching support as there was a freaking lockout and coaches couldn't be there either to observe or to orchestrate. Tebow worked with Zeke Bratkowski, Noel Mazzone, Marc Trestman and Sam Wyche while getting ready for the draft. Since then, he's continued to work with Mazzone each offseason, including this past year when he worked both with Mazzone and with Tom House. Sure, it occupied a lot of his time, and yes, he did more of that kind of stuff than other players. They, on the other hand, might have spent a week or two in Aruba or Hawaii with their families, or might have gone on a trip to Africa with Santonio. Or whatever other things that NFL players do in the offseason to unwind and recover a bit. As I discussed above, Tebow could "work out", including working on his mechanics while going on these speaking engagements and personal appearances, as the article you linked to discussed. I'm more than happy to lay off the personal attacks if you and guys like CC will stick to the actual facts instead of talking off the top of your head or making things up. Actually, if you have access to film of the preseason games he appeared in, go back and take a close look at some of those games. His mechanics looked a lot better than they did in 2011. He carried the ball high, his motion was more compact and the ball came out quicker. Most of his passes were nice, tight spirals and they were on the right vector/target line. His biggest issue mechanically was with how much to put on the ball, which led to passes being under/over thrown. And yes, that's an improvement from last year. The one thing you didn't see this preseason was him bouncing balls in the dirt 5 and 10 yards away from receivers. Try and put yourself in my shoes for a minute. I've spent the last year correcting people like CC on the factually inaccurate things that they say, then here you come regurgitating some of the very same things. Take the book tour for example. CC went on about it a long time ago until I called him out on it. Now here you come saying the same thing. Guess what ? The whole 5 appearances he made were inconsequential. You all make it sound like he was out on the road for a month or two hawking his book. That just simply wasn't the case. It was 5 signings, 3 close to "home" in Florida and 2 close to "home" in Colorado. Think about it. If you heard that Tebow went to the movies 5 times during the offseason, would you claim that he wasn't working hard enough to improve ? What about going out to dinner for a couple hours three times a week ?
Except so far as I can determine - please correct me if I'm wrong - the only time Tebow EVER went to a QB guru was prior to the Draft. New Bears HC Marc Trestmann helped to fix Tebow's throwing motion before the Combine and his Pro Day. THEN he showed a perfect, textbook throwing motion. It was a beautiful thing. But when he got into real games, he quickly and totally regressed to the same old motion he had in college. And he's still there. No. Because inconsistencies creep back in. You need that outside set on eyes on you constantly. And it's not just in the initial learning process. HoF slam-dunk QBs like Tom Brady, Payton Manning and Drew Brees STILL spend a lot of off-season time with private coaches (QB gurus) to correct bad habits that they pick up. And without a coach with him observing and immediately correcting bad habits and inconsistencies, he kept repeating mistakes in his mechanics that ingrained themselves, ultimately becoming far harder to correct and "un-learn." Unsupervised "practices" when you are trying to learn how to do something properly is never a good thing. OK, I made a mistake with D. Thomas. But that's it. Kyle Orton working out with Broncos teammates in Denver Orton was working out with teammates even prior to the team workouts Dawkins set up. And notice the article mentions that they had a trainer with them? As a "team leader" (Tebow started the last 3 games of the 2010 season and there were widespread assumptions that he would remain the starter in 2011), Tebow should have had the TEAM being as ready as possible as a top priority. Leaving town as quickly as possible to pursue other interests shows that he did not have football as a top priority. Not exclusively. They had professional coaches (the "gurus") with them working on basics of technique, etc., as well. And this is the fallback position of most Tebow defenders, personal attacks. I had really thought that you were not one of those guys. You pick apart a few details of my remarks about events from over 2 years ago - where I have to rely mainly on memory because most of the news articles from that far back are now archived and you have to pay for them - and act like you disproved the main point. News flash - you didn't. That's odd. Because Kyle Orton had coaches at his individual workouts. And the team workouts organized by B-Dawk had coaches. The players couldn't have any contact with the TEAM COACHES. But there are plenty of private coaches that players hire personally in the off-season for individual work. Those guys were available. Tebow didn't bother to use that resource. Since you set the precedent - got a reference for that? And if it is true, then he's really shown absolutely no progress. Makes it seem like Timmy's completely uncoachable... Yeah they do. They also work their asses off improving because the NFL is insanely competitive. Again, got a reference for that? Besides, when Tebow arrived in camp he looked HORRIBLE. It was immediately obvious that he was the worst QB on the roster. If that's the result of Tebow actually trying to improve, he is doomed in the NFL. Hasn't stopped you yet. I posted links and still you keep up this childish crap. You'll have to post links to film for that claim... The book signings were hardly the only thing. You just want to pretend that it was. Because otherwise it becomes obvious that playing football - that he was being paid millions of dollars to do - was not his top priority. In your previous post you argued that Tebow didn't show up at first to the team workouts that Dawkins-organized workouts or stay there long because he had already committed to do other things. Now you're trying to say that he had plenty of time to work on football. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this.
HAHAHAHA rifle team!!! No wonder you dont know shit about what makes a good QB. You read books, articles and the like. You ever actually play the sport?
Right and wrong. He's worked with Guru's every offseason. You are right about him regressing late in games when he went back into the shotgun. But, ironically enough, that's when he did better Sure, they go back to their private coaches, BUT, they still spend time practicing on their own, doing drills WITHOUT the tutors as well. You go to the Guru. They look at what you are doing, they dissect it, they make changes. They work with you extensively for a short time, and then they give you tools/exercises for you to continue with on your own. Not really. It was more what you said before, that he reverted back to his "old mechanics" as opposed to picking up new bad habits. Sure they are. As long as the Guru spent a good amount of time with the player establishing a firm foundation. Yes, they had a trainer with them. Did you notice who that trainer was ? It was Loren Landow. Do you know what kind of trainer he is ? Speed and conditioning. As opposed to a "trainer" who would work on mechanics, or route running, yada, yada, yada. Really >? Hmm, let's see. You just cited an article from MAY 5th talking about Orton working out with Denver teammates that week. And you just chastised Tebow for apparently not working out with his teammates as soon ? This is from an article dated May 19th : Hmmm, article written MAY 19th, referencing workouts LAST MONTH which would have been in APRIL. April still comes before May 5th doesn't it ?? So wouldn't that mean that Tebow had in fact worked out with team mates BEFORE the Orton workouts that you are harping on ? At some point Dennis, when you are in this deep of a hole, it really is best if you just stop digging and put the shovel down. Yeah, Speed and conditioning trainer, Loren Landow. Sorry, I missed where Landow was a "technique guru". Can you link to that ?? It's warranted. Look at what you just did. "Oh, I'm not familiar with what they did at Jets West, so I won't comment on it. I'm also not familiar with what Tebow did during the offseason, but hey, I'll make all sorts of presumptions in this case and spout of a bunch of crap, even though I don't know what I"m talking about". They hypocritical duality is fascinating to say the least. Dude, I've disproved every single claim that you have made, and it's taken mere minutes to find the information via google. No, Orton had a conditioning trainer at his workouts, and that's what Dawkins had as well. Sure I have a reference for that: http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/11656/tebow-2-0-to-be-revealed-at-gators-pro-day And: http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nfl/...ebow-workouts-causing-tebow-mania-ucla-campus And: http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nfl/...-tebow-works-la-based-throwing-guru-tom-house Actually have to split this in two pieces.......
As for Tebow supposedly being "uncoachable": Wait. So other NFL players can work their asses off and improve, even when taking off season vacations to Aruba, or Africa, or spending time with their families. But Tebow ? Oh no, he has to spend every waking hour working on football ? That's hypocritical again and evidence of a double standard. You provided the damned reference. Remember ? Throwing the ball in the hotel parking lot with his brother ? He looked like a young QB who still needed some work. Dude, the links you have posted have validated what I have said and have disproven your claims. And I've posted links as well as quotes proving you to be wrong in just about every case. You'll have to find the film yourself. No, I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth. YOU are the one who is wrongly claiming that not making Dawkins workout that was organized and announced at the last minute somehow demonstrates that Tebow didn't spend enough time working on his craft. This completely ignores that fact that Tebow had worked out with Denver receivers PRIOR to the workouts that Dawkins had organized. It ignores the fact that Tebow flew some of the WR corps out and housed them for a week in Florida for workouts. It ignores the fact that Tebow worked out a lot a bunch of other times as well. Your entire argument is worse that suspect. Actually, it's downright laughable and sad.
