Eh, not really. It can be for those who somehow find a way to complicate and oversimplify football at the same time...we own many of them on this site. 1. Personally, I think the average football fan exaggerates the hell out of their QB problems. The QB is an important position, but it's also a position that really relies on the other 10 guys on the field with him at that moment in time. The offense is a unit, not a bunch of individuals working separately on one goal. Better O-line, better running, and more WRs probably means better passing game. 2. Besides for Jay Cutler, I don't think Mangini has passed up a QB of any significance. 3. I know this sounds crazy, but it's entirely possible to be a good team without a Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or a Carson Palmer. Who was David Garrard before this year? System matters. O-line matters. Overall offensive personell matters. Really, my biggest worry is that Clemens and Pennington are still shaken up from last season, but that would mean they have vaginas and people with vaginas don't play football. At least...guys with vaginas don't. Iunno. Kendall got what he deserved. Think about it this way...you're a young coach...you just went to the playoffs and you're riding a wave...now some old fuck who didn't even play *that* well AND didn't seem all too well liked in general wants a raise...you would give it to him just because you think you desperately need him? The Kendall move was a bad one because it hurt us so badly in '07. Fortunately, '07 is '07 and long done with. Now we can reap the long term benefits of that move...this coaching staff ain't a bunch of nervous, young n00bs like some of this sites brighter minds tries/tried to portray them. Hmmm...where to start.... 1. Cap room. What was the major difference between this offseason and the past 2 for us? We went from like negative cap room to one of the teams with the most cap room. Actually thats all I got because I really should be going and making this quick. Yea um....look at the guys starting on the team and look how many of them have been drafted in the 3 years...and that list includes some of our better or higher potenital plays...Mangold, Revis, Harris, and Leon....while D'Brick, Clemens, Gholston, and Keller are all (hopefully) ready to break out. Much may depend on the performance of the players picked in this year's draft. We are all hopeful about that, but at best this remains to be seen. So far the performance on the draft by this regime is so so at best. Eh...if you half ass it and put unrealistic expectations on a HC because it's so easy to see what they did wrong from your armchair....sure.
Quote: "...Personnel and the 3-4. What was achieved in waiting, what did we learn that we did not know a year ago, about the players that were expected this time last year to make the 3-4 work? Nothing. They had every reason to acknowledge that neither Robertson nor Vilma was suited for the 3-4. No trades were attempted. No changes to the D were made. They just let another year go by without getting anything for it. All that realy happened is the trade value of the two went down...." Big Blocker, I think there may actually be several reasons why the D-Rob trade and the Vilma trade would not have happened last year. In fact, it may have taken all of the time before these trades to move either of these guys could actually be made. 1. D-Rob's bone-on-bone knee problem was reported on more than once from training camp onward because he was being spelled from the pre-season to preserve his playing capability on game day. 2. D-Rob's tradability was established by his record of not missing any game time and playing at a very high level (effort-wise especially) without taking any time off. You better believe that the Broncos scrutinized D-Rob on tape for any "turd-itis" they could find since the only way they finally took him was on a 65% on the field or no compensation basis. 3. Vilma's knee atrophy condition was congenital, not just a fluke of the game in the last quarter of the 07 season. 4. Vilma was trying very hard to make the 3-4 transition work -- he happens to be that kind of a player. Only after he was blown away by big OGs time and time again did he and everybody else reluctantly recognize that 'there were some problems for Vilma in the 3-4'. But, mainly it was problems for Vilma in the NYJs' 3-4. David Harris' play totally exposed the truth of the matter, since David Harris was subjected to exactly the same "no show" of the middle of the DL and he managed somehow to make more than 100 in a fraction of the 07 season. 5. By sitting Vilma down and then putting him on IR, the NYJs actually did him a favor by giving him a "medical out" for his abysmal performance on '07 to date. Also, this gave him the opportunity to get this knee fixed medically, and provided him with a protracted rehabilitation period so that when the 08 season comes around, Vilma will be almost new and in a much more convivial NO 4-3. 6. If the NYJs just abruptly traded Vilma at the beginning or even middle of the season when they realized he was not working out, his current performance (even though it was not wholly his fault) would have given NFL teams ample ground to ruthlessly downgrade his value, or even his attractiveness for a trade. 7. The way the NYJs handled this decision on Vilma and D-Rob was the best for the team and the best for the players, it has turned out. The 07 NYJs were not going anywhere without an OL, period. The QBs had no chance to do anything and ultimately both of them got nicked up because of the leaking sieve OL that left them naked to the pass rush with no running game. But the CS and the FO had to work out moves that would help the team not just acknowledge and cut out its shortcomings. 8. The real games deliver brutal truths from the first gun. The NYJ CS and FO had no illusions after the first five or six quarters about the team they had. Somebody on this "message board" has pointed out -- rightfully so, it seems to me -- that even if we didn't get rid of Kendall his presence would not have guaranteed a winning season by any means. Maybe he would have helped us to 6-10, or the polyanna Madden boys perhaps might actually have expected a 7-9 '07 season. But that is stretching the hell out of it. Given what the FO and CS were faced with in house, and what was out there to trade for, and where they came down in the draft -- they have made all the moves that can be construed as intelligent. Whether that generates a winning season or not is actually why we are watching this snowy, full-of-static pre-pre-season television and talking about what's going to happen, what might not happen, would could happen, what better happen, what....
This is a very good post you wrote. 1. The Qb situation will have to be settled this year no matter what. There is no way Tangini will last another year if it is not. A quality Vet should have been brought in to compete with Clemens. If he is a bust we are in big trouble. The Chad warning signs have been there for four years and it has not been addressed since he hurt his arm. 2. Vilma and Robertson were not suited for the 3-4 from day one and should have been traded while their value was higher. Unfortunately they do not have the credibility of a Parcells coming into town so it was a bit harder for them to make decisions that had to be made. The had to play politics rather than hardball regarding gutting the team to get the players they needed. 3. I think they have gotten some good players but I think their fatal flaw was last years draft when they traded away picks as if we were two players away from a SB berth. They believed their own hype and didn't want to accept the fact that the stars lined up in 2006 and we got a weak schedule where we played only five teams over .500 the whole year and lost four of those games and the teams in the Afc south beat each other up so we slipped into the playoffs. Basically we got lucky and our talent was actually closer to the 4-12 last year as opposed to the 10-6 the year before. 4. I am optimistic that we had a good draft this year but we still picked two players that could both be huge busts. For all that has been said of Gholston he reeks of workout warrior that shot up the draftboard because of it. Or T/E is really a slot receiver and that can't block and that could blow up in our face if Baker is let go. Especially if we lose an o-lineman and our T/E has to stay in and block like last year. I like the Tangini plan I just don't like their arrogance. They have two years to get it right or their misguided arrogance will be humbled.
Let's see how things actually start off next season before we start giving the current FO and CS two seasons. I can make a very good case for the Jets being 0-3 after 3 games and heading into a streak of a half dozen average to poor opponents where they really need to win most of them to have a shot at .500 next year. Generally speaking collapses like the Jet's experienced in 2007 are followed by at the minimum a coaching change shortly thereafter, because they don't happen in a vacuum - they happen due to deficiencies in talent and coaching and you can't fix 53 players as quickly as you fix one coach.
Gholston was rated in the top 12 before the combine, and then went at 6 on draft day. That really isn't shooting up a draft board. Revis shot up draft boards after being though of as a late 1st round pick until after the combine and pro day, and he was the 1st CB taken that year. Keller shot up draft boards after being thought of more of a mid-2nd rounder. After the combine he went at 30. The TE staying in to block is either Franks or Posciak. Keller will continue the Dallas Clark role he will be playing. Antonio Gates hates blocking too, btw.
Im sure we can both make the same case for that 0-3 start. The Phins could pull that first game off on emotion and then we have two in a row v.s. Ne and Sd which are probable losses as it stands. Not to mention there are games on our schedule that people are counting as wins that should not be. We play teams that had bad records last year that have good talent on them.
I want a pick at 6 that was rated in the top 8. I don't want things like his 40 time at the combine or how many reps he did or how he looks in pads to determine where he is picked. I want to draft a football player not a workout warrior. Franks has been declining over the last few years on a team with Brett Farve as the Qb. That sends warning signs to me. If Posciak has to get guality playing time this season we are in deep trouble at that position. Gates might not block but the rest of their line does so it is not an issue for the Chargers. Regarding Keller shooting up the draft board I am skeptical of any player that has played in college that just shoots up overnight. If he was making plays there would be no need to shoot up the draft board in the first place.
Ha somebody ought to look up the blowholes record in the heat & humidity of SE Florida in Sept. Man better build up there stamina real well or we will be real unhappy fans as we watch them wilt in the Miami heat on opening day 08
Look at the Draft Board and tell me who you wanted that was rated in the top 8 that was available at 6 and made sense to fit this ball club? Gholston was the only option, unless you want to take the huge chance on trading up for players that couldn't distance themselves from the pack this year. The draft doesn't work that way. Trade down, and then Gholston is there for the Pats and now we look like the typical draft morons we always are. Be happy with what we have this year. As for Keller, I wouldn't say "overnight" but the combine helped and in a draft full of WR who weren't 1st round material, so much more can be done in terms of mismatches. He was making plays, but Purdue isn't the school that gets a lot of attention. Being skeptical of Keller is what I kinda was, but with the HW I did on him before and after the draft I'm not too upset. I actually told a friend of mine who goes to Davidson Univ. in NC not to rule out Keller because of his rising stock... I'd never thought the Jets would actually pull the trigger though.
The Fins are not going to be a terrible team next season, they are going to be a below average team much like the Jets. It took some amazingly bad coaching out of Cam Cameron and his staff for them to be as bad as they were last year in the same way that it took some amazingly bad coaching from Rich Kotite for the Jets to go 1-15 in 1996. I expect the Jets have a good chance to lose in Miami not because the Fins will be playing with emotion, but because it's hard for a below average team to win on the road in the NFL. I don't think the Jets have a particularly tough schedule next year, far from it, however the first three games are a really nasty gutcheck for them and it's going to be easy for them to be 0-3 with Mangini beginning to look like he's on life support and a string of games ahead that will tell the tale. I don't mean to be relentlessly negative about the Jets but I have spent 38 years watching them swing back and forth between being a team just good enough to make the playoffs and a team that couldn't punch it's way out of a paper bag, with a lot of mediocrity between those extremes. The fact that Mangini's first two years mirrored the Jet's swings doesn't bode well for us.
Since we signed Calvin pace and already had Brian Thomas here are some more solutions that might have been better options if you want to draft for need. We could have drafted Sedrick Ellis because we still need a viable backup for Jenkins. If Jenkins goes down the defense goes down for the year. How about Derrick Harvey to rotate with Kenyon Coleman on pass rushing situations because we need to get pressure from the De position? How about Jerod Mayo who the Pats traded down to get who is a natural OLB and might actually turn out better than Gholston because he knows the position and got drafted because of his play at Olb and not leaping up in the combines. We could have traded down got him and picked up extra picks. How about Drafting the highest ranked Leodis Mcelvin because everybody opposite Revis on our team s**ks right now. If the Pats wanted Gholston they could have traded up to get him. They are retooling for a Sb run not rebuilding like us. I think they played the game to get the player they wanted and get an extra pick as well. Im not saying Gholston is going to be a bust but there are other ways we could have gone. I actually think he will be pretty good. Im not opposed to drafting Keller just surprised because he they were saying he would be there when we picked again. Im not to mad at the pick because he brings what we need but if Baker is gone and we need him to block there could be issues here.
Mangini took over a mess and is two years into the process. What did you expect right out of the gate? I'm surprised they were able to go 10-6 and make the playoffs in his first year. When you hire a young coach for his upside down the road, you live with the growing pains the first couple of years. Especially when you bring him in to revamp an aging 4-12 mess like they did after the 2005 season. To judge him by his first two years and by association hold him responsible for the previous 36 is not looking at it clearly.
I'm not looking at him so much as the organizational processes that brought him in and that have continued to predominate in the talent acquisition process. The Jets are still paying top dollar for mainly secondary talent with upside (excepting Alan Faneca whose signing I agreed with because of the need to stabilize D'brick and give Mangold some help on his left shoulder after abandoning him last year), they're still bundling picks to move up in the draft for people who are not guaranteed to be anything more than a decent player, and they're still trading draft picks away to fill positions of need. Some of the people who caused the mess we're in are still in the building, including the current GM (and I don't buy the Tannenbaum was an innocent bystander while things fell apart argument given that the Jet's management decisions of 2008 look much like their management decisions of 2003), and Woody still seems to be a fairly disinterested owner in the Leon Hess mode who is content to hire people and then not check in on them all that seriously from year to year. It's just very frustrating to watch this crap continue as my hair starts to turn gray and realize that there's a very real possibility the Jets wil not win a single championship in the lifetime minus 8 years that I spend watching them. I think those 88 year old Redsox fans who never saw the sox win but came back year after year were idiots to tell you the truth. Losing is losing.
Good points, including the reality of the political situation a brand new HC was in coming to this team. Still, as you point out you can only give Mangini so much of a mulligan type treatment. The fact remains that 06 was a mirage due to a number of factors, and an HC looking closely at the team that year, the Cleveland debacle, the putrid showing against Chicago, showed a Qb who was very much showing an arm that could not get it down the field. Meanwhile no effort was made to see what they had in Clemens, and Mangini, rather than see the problems with Chad, gives him the starting position for 07 with no contest, only to watch the "player development" add up to a greatly increased propensity for throwing the pick six. It's not merely a question of what someone here suggested the only alternative was, picking a Qb such as Cutler in the draft. There have been two off seasons go by since they (rightly) dumped Ramsey and have not found a way to bring in a vet Qb in case Clemens has not or does not pan out. Again, I find the prospect that Clemens could so poorly perform as to leave the starting position to Chad to be an inexcusable scenario. Kendall. Mangini didn't show strength by the way he handled this situation. He showed a phony toughness that bit him in the ass. He played hardball when he had no Plan B if Kendall didn't break. He has no reason to think Kendall would break. Turns out Kendall and his agent had a much better idea of Kendall's market value than the Jets said he was worth. They could have handled it quietly early on, instead did nothing, and could do nothing when Kendall pointed out he had the leverage. They should cut their losses then, but instead froze in their hardened stance. Even then they did nothing more than bring Clarke into camp, and we know how that worked out. I hope he has learned from this one, but whether he actually has remains to be seen. You are correct Vilma and Robertson were at least questionable in the 3-4 from day one, and some were definitely asking that. The point is that there was more than enough indication available in 06 to prove that, and nothing was gained by another year's trying. I can't agree the trade value of both was improved. THere is no evidence for that. And yes, no reason for lack of optimism about this year's draft, but it remains to be seen...
I'm going to deconstruct this little tidbit from one of your posts because all your posts follow this kind of argument structure...form an opinion based on little but most insiginificant of info...and then spin it so it sounds ridiculously bad: Your "top dollar for mainly secondary talent with upside" line... - Cap dying. - Lots of cap space for lots of teams. - Lots of bad teams have cap space. - Lots of good teams have cap space. - Teams have the franchise tag to take away best players. - Teams still have lots to spend. - Suggs, Haynesworth, Dansby, Tommy Kelly, Briggs, and Derek Anderson (bleh) are all franchised or signed by their teams to extensions. - Free agent market of '08 is watered down. - That still doesn't change the fact teams have money to burn. - Agents aren't stupid. - Most players aren't that stupid. - Price goes up. - Demand still remains high because so many teams have money and need. It's fuckin' simple. What you're calling top dollar is the going rate. This has been explained a million times and its simple common fucking sense...but you'll ignore it. Your "still bundling picks to move up in the draft for people who are not guaranteed to be anything more than a decent player" comment. - The most obvious piece of retarded thought in this should be the "not guaranteed to be anything more than a decent player" comment. Think about that for two seconds. You won't, but I'd suggest it. Again. - What in the fuck are you talking about? We bundled up our picks for two of our 5 best players in '07, and traded up for one of the best athletes at this years combine who offers more than "decent player" upside. and they're still trading draft picks away to fill positions of need - Christ...aren't you the guy who was bitching because we didn't fill our obvious G hole during the first round in last years draft? You were whining about not drafting for need before...now you're bitching because (in your opinion) they traded up for good players who fit a need? - Every position was a need for us. Anyone we drafted would be considered a "need" pick by you. - Those picks were David Harris and Darrell Revis. Why are you complaining? Those are like 2 of the 3 best defensive rookies from last years class. And two of the top 5 overall going by NFL performance. You really can't be this dense....
Would you prefer us Jet Fans who have been tortured for the last 40 years to turn a blind eye and pretend that everything is great when it is not. Pretend that some of the players we signed are were not overpaid for? Pretend that the cb that suits up next to Revis this year is not going to be horrible? Pretend that Chad can throw a decent ten yard pass? Pretend that Coles and Ellis have more than a year or two left in the tank? Pretend the Patriots are going to show weakness this year because of the Sb? Pretend we are on the level with the Pats, Chargers, Colts, Steelers and Jaguars? We are not whinning we are stating the ugly truths that Jet Fans ignore but Honest Football fans can not.
And FourthAndLong...you wanted to use the #6 pick on Sedrick Ellis over Gholston? Even if you believe that Ellis could be a legit NFL 3-4 NT...heres some reasons why it's still a terrible idea: - Pass rusher is still a way more valuable position than 3-4 NT. - You'd have to be 100% convinced Ellis can handle the 3-4 NT position because he can't play anywhere else on the DL. - You'd be paying a guy #6 money and he's not even a lock to be able to play the position you want him to play? And you think this is...good? - NT's can take years to develop. - Pouha is already a good backup.
No, you're whining. You know why you're whining (IMHO of course)? Because "honest football fans" would apply some actual football logic and not bullshit negative slant to their analysis. "Honest football fans" would realize that the Chargers, Colts, Steelers, and Jaguars were all jokes at one point too. "Honest football fans" would realize you don't build Rome in 3 years. And "Honest football fans" wouldn't be bitching about the 3rd year before they've even seen training camp of said 3rd season. "Honest football fans" would look at the game today and not use a bunch of vague, unsupported opinions they call facts. This is like the worst part of it to me personally. No "honest football fan" would have to tell other honest football fans that they're REAL honest football fans. It's bullshit. Arrogant bullshit at that. I don't consider myself a football prodigy...I consider myself a fan on the internet talking to other fans on the internet...why not do the same instead of telling us you're showing us the light? You don't know more than any of us here. I mean look how much exaggerated crap is in here...Chad can't throw a 10 yard pass? Seriously? Does it really matter if Coles and Ellis are done in a couple years? Do they look like huge keys to this teams future? Have you considered the possibility of a future or is the past and how it looks the only important thing to you? You're already garaunteeing us that whoever lines up at the #2 CB spot is a lock to be "horrible?" And you call this shit truth? Seriously? What kind of arrogant, wack ass bullshit is that? I'm supposed to take you guys *more* seriously than the less TRULY honest football fans here like yourself?
