Well, first of all, to be fair to Favre, he has 15 TD passes, not 12. That is damned impressive. But TDs count the same no matter who scores them. You can't determine who is responsible for a team's TDs by counting up the touchdown passes. A simple example: last week at Denver, in the decisive drive in the 4th quarter, the Dolphins had 84 yards passing and six yards rushing. In the last of several big throws during the drive, on third-and-13 Pennington hit a 23-yarder to Williams to the Denver 2. The next play, Brown ran it in. So, in the record books, that is Ronnie's touchdown. But the drive belonged to Pennington. If the Dolphins were constantly stalling in the redzone and kicking field goals (as tended to happen late in Marino's career), I would be concerned about Pennington's low TD pass total. But they've been quite good at converting TD chances with Brown and Williams. The main reasons the offense hasn't scored more is our up and down defense (which seems to be improving, but has given up a lot of long drives and come up with relatively few turnovers) and our horrible special teams, which consistently give the other team good field position and give us bad field position. A term like game manager keeps people from thinking clearly. To lazy sportswriters and fans it means a guy who hands it off a lot, or who throws short passes. But the cold fact is, a QB who has turned the ball over to the other team 14 times in 8 games is a failure as a game manager. Pennington is playing much more effectively than Favre so far this year. Of course, that could change in a hurry. But right now, Pennington is carrying the Fins' offense, and the Jets offense (particularly Jones, Washington and the OL) is carrying Favre.
Well, first of all, to be fair to Favre, he has 15 TD passes, not 12. That is damned impressive. But TDs count the same no matter who scores them. You can't determine who is responsible for a team's TDs by counting up the touchdown passes. A simple example: last week at Denver, in the decisive drive in the 4th quarter, the Dolphins had 84 yards passing and six yards rushing. In the last of several big throws during the drive, on third-and-13 Pennington hit a 23-yarder to Williams to the Denver 2. The next play, Brown ran it in. So, in the record books, that is Ronnie's touchdown. But the drive belonged to Pennington. If the Dolphins were constantly stalling in the redzone and kicking field goals (as tended to happen late in Marino's career), I would be concerned about Pennington's low TD pass total. But they've been quite good at converting TD chances with Brown and Williams. The main reasons the offense hasn't scored more is our up and down defense (which seems to be improving, but has given up a lot of long drives and come up with relatively few turnovers) and our horrible special teams, which consistently give the other team good field position and give us bad field position. Terms like game manager obscure more than they reveal. The fact is, Pennington is passing much more effectively than Favre so far this year. Of course, that could change in a hurry. But right now, Pennington is carrying the Fins' offense, and the Jets offense (particularly Jones and the OL) is carrying Favre.
The Jets offense is 8th in scoring in the league, while the Dolphins are 19th. Pennington had 1 win with us last year.
Chad will never leave Jets fans. He teased everyone so much with his potential. Now it's "well, look where that Rhodes Scholar shit got him."
Let's be honest, the NFC North has been a horrible division and the AFC has clearly been better than the NFC for a long time now. The NFC has finally caught up again but it took over a decade. Chad is certainly playing like one of the best in the NFL RIGHT NOW. it doesn't mean he's better overall than most of the top QBs, itdoesn't mean he'll end up at that way but through 8 games he has had one of the best seasons of any QB in the NFL. Rivers is putting up #s and losing, I'll take Chad. Warner is ahead of Chad. Romo was not playing great football before he got hurt, that Cowboy O w/ all the weapons they had wasn't humming along except for that philly game. Chad is having a better season than Romo. Chad is having a better year than Aaron Rodgers. Rodgers has been good in place of Favre but again he has much more talent to play w/ and he's led his team to the same record as Chad against what appears to be(like that?) a weaker schedule. Campbell is having a better year Eli is having a better year. I think Eli MAY be the best QB in the NFL now. Orton is having a good year, Chad is having a better year. Matt Ryan has been amazing for a rookie and I might give him the slight edge. I'm not sure about delhomme. he has a much better team around him. Wouldn't you agree Chad belongs in that group? Whether you think a few of those guys are slightly better or slightly worse Chad belongs in the top group of QBs so far this year? I think you have a decent criteria. Here's what I use to judge the all-time greats: 1: Play in big games(especially January). This is w/o a doubt my most important factor. It's why I have Brady over manning and they aren't really close. Sometimes it's not the QBs fault that his team lost but he has to play well in big games. A much better playoff record can seperate 2 close QBs. 2: elevating your team, you have to be able to make your team better. It's subjective obviously but I feel like I can judge teams pretty well. You don't have to win Championships but you have to take your teams as far or even farther than they would w/o you. This is why I don't have Steve Young anywhere near my top 10. He inherited a dynasty and only won 1 Championship w/ it. 3. Good #s. If 2 guys are close in the top 2 factors I can use his overall #s to break the tie. Judging #s against peers, it's not just compiled #s like a guy like Art Monk. You look at his #s and think wow! he's up there w/ Jerry Rioce but when you dig deeper you see he was only top 10 in recs 4 times in 16 years, top 10 in rec yds only 3 times in 16 years and top 10 in rec TDs only ONCE(tied for 9th) in 16 years. For Favre: 1. he's been spotty in big games. First half of his career he was good when he had Holmgren. The 2nd half he has been poor in big games. In the other 2 categories he gets high marks but for me what seperates the best is how they played in big games and how the reached heights team wise that they shouldn't have. This is why I don't put him anywhere near the top 5. He was not consistent enough in big games and had some good teams in a bad conference and didn't win enough in January. Favre is not the best QB to ever play for the Packers, he's #2 behind Bart Starr so how can I make him the best ever when he's not the best GB QB? He is the most popular Packer but that doesn't mean anything when judging QBs. and I have always liked Favre and I STILL like Favre. he's frustrating to watch at times but I still like him and want him to play well every week and lead us to wins. You can accuse me of hating him as the reason I don't think he's in the discussion for best ever but that's simply not true b/c I like him. I hate Tom Brady and yet I have him in my top 5.
See my criteria above. I give a guy like Marino a top grade b/c he elevated his teams. he rarely had a good defense, never had a running game and he made 2 average WRs look like stars. If Marino ever had any help(this was Shula's fault) Miami would have won Championships. Len Dawson won 2 Championships and KC has won just 3 playoff games since Len Dawson left and 2 of them were led by Montana. Dawson was overshadowed by the hype of namath but he was a great QB. I don't. He hasn't earned the right to be in that discussion. He's just a good, solid QB. I don't have any problem w/ people countering my arguments. I haven't watched every game of his career so I know I am probably wrong on a few things. I am pretty sure I have seen every postseason game though and that's important to me. GB had little left at the end of 2002? GB won 4 straight after the Clifton hit and were on a 4 game winning streak including a win at playoff bound SF when our teams met. I can't buy that one. Those #s include defensive TDs and we have 3 of those. Miami's D hs scored 2 pts all year. The offensive point totals are very close and their O has been much more consistent than ours. We scored 15 garbage time points at SD then had the one great offensive game against Ari. Miami has been pretty consistent since about week 3 offensively.
Well sure they were on a 4 game winning streak but against who? San Francisco was a decent team back then but for some reason Favre owns that team. They damn near blew that one though. SF was driving for the winning score in the final seconds. GB was struggling against inferior teams though. Losing to the Vikings late in the year and barely winning the home game vs. the Vikings. GB got a homefield call from the officials or they would have dropped that one also. Like I said.....you'd have to watch the games to realize. The packers were blowing out teams earlier in the year or at least putting up a lot of yards and points. They were struggling with inferior teams at home late in the year. Makes no sense unless you dig a little deeper. GB limped into the playoffs that year. People around Favre still say to this day that he was never the same after that knee injury. He was the front runner by a mile on some polls for MVP at midseason. His numbers fell off drastically after that. Really no coincidence. And if you saw the playoff game vs. Atlanta then you'd know that Favre's play was not the reason GB lost. A huge swing in momentum was the blown call by the officials when they ruled a muffed punt in the 1st half. That spotted the Falcons an easy TD.
I just don't see it the same way: Rivers isn't just "putting up #'s". He is putting up the BEST numbers of everyone. The Charger's offense is lacking in run game, 25th in the NFL, yet they are 7th in scoring. He is on pace for 38 TD's and only 12 INT's. Thats monstrous. You've got to be kidding that Romo wasn't playing well. In his 6 games this year he has thrown for 3 TD's in 4 games and at no point has thrown more than 1 INT. He also managed wins in both games where he only threw 1 TD. He has also thrown for more than 300 yards in 4 of his six games. You like toughness of schedule, and they have also had one of the TOUGHEST schedules yet this year. He nearly has a 3.0 TD/INT ratio. His numbers are HUGE. The Packer's schedule isn't tough? I think you need to rethink that. They have played 2 games that are against sub 0.500 teams. They have played Dallas(when they were on fire), Tampa, Atlanta, and the TITANS. That is no way to say that they have a weak schedule. But yes, Miami has played a tough schedule as well. Rodgers has 13 TD passes, along with 3 rushing TD's. Thats a pace for 32 TD's (rush/pass) and only 10 INT. Thats a fantastic year. I would argue that he's no where near E.Manning, Rivers, Romo, Rodgers, Warner, Brees, Cutler, or Campbell. I'd say he's lumped in with McNabb, Delhomme, Orton, Ryan, Roethlisberger. I'd place him around 10th overall. I doubt that many impartial people would place him that much higher honestly. But I don't know how may QB's you qualify as "top". I wouldn't put more than 5 in that category, so no, I don't think there is any argument that you could provide that would place him top 5. Also I think that the top 7 I named are playing at a level FAR SUPERIOR to anyone else. He's having a good year yes, just not one of the best in the NFL. NOTE: I've left Favre out of this list because I don't want to make this a Penny Vs. Favre thing.
This isn't hard. Look up the numbers on nfl.com, especially rating. Rivers, Brees, Warner and Romo are playing better than Pennington. Rodgers is about the same. Everyone else is worse.
You rate QB's purely by rating? Thats oversimplifying. I'm pretty sure that many would agree that QB rating is quite flawed. It's a good indicator, but not even close to the end all be all. It doesn't even consider wins. Heck, Elway averaged less than a QB rating of 77 over his entire career. Does this mean that he is not one of the top QB's of this generation? I think not. Now consider Brady: 2007 1st in QB rating 2006: 9th in QB rating 2005: 6th in QB rating 2004: 9th in QB rating <--- Won SB 2003: 10th in QB rating <--- Won SB 2002: 9th in QB rating 2001: 6th in QB rating <--- Won SB Are you really gonna argue that its as simple as QB rating? That would mean you would never have placed Brady higher than 6th best QB of any year aside from last?
I don't understand how you can denigrate Favre for having Holmgren as a coach and playing with you feel were talented teams. Bart Starr had Lombardi and had EXTREMELY talented teams. This is not a knock on you, but I just don't understand comparing QB's from the old generation to this generation (I know Favre is old as balls, but I'd still put him with this generation ). The game has just changed too much to really make a very detailed comparison. Starr certainly had more championships though.
Oh how sweet somebody gave flipper an internet connection. Chad always fucks up! Flipper will soon realize this. The 60's are calling they want their tv mascot back. Favre will kick chad's ass anytime. I can't wait until we crush the flipper into submission wk 17. We already kick your ass once we will do it again. Typical flipper fan talking shit all way until there asses are kicked. FU A-Hole!
sorry to bring this up but.....any favre haters out there now? Helped lead us to a 47-3 win(mostly TJ but favre managed well for TJ to score). Most in jets history! Who wants to talk about penny now? Almost lost to a crappy Seattle team. And if any of you defend this by saying a wins a win go fuck youself because Favre should get the credit for a wins a win against KC(where now that I think about it, KC is not bad anymore!) In my opinion...Favre>>>>>>>>>>>>Penny. It's official. And the jets will beat the pats...it'll be close, but a Jets victory!
Uhm, just so you know (and I am a HUGE Marino fan - he is clearly a top 3 or 4 QB of all-time, in my opinion), Marino (just like Favre) had a LOT of shaky big games.
Ok yesterday's game was all the running attack and the defense. Favre managed the game just like Pennington did. i like Favre and don't want Pennington back, but Favre threw 2 passes that were easy picks, the Rams DBs just dropped them. Those could have changed the game
Ssssssshhhhh... you'll offend their delicate sensibilities with talk like that. :smile: Penny threw up a pick 6 yesterday... I'm giving Favre the nod this week because he didn't manage to do anything to lose us the game, but he did only slightly more than Pennington this week.
