I wasn't really speaking of no one in particular which is why I didn't quote anyone. It was more like a generalized comment. Besides, people like winston are too smart to think they would be lumped in with mr nyjet. If he thought I was lumping him in then I'll apologize to him, because I wasn't really responding to winston, even though my post was right under his. It was a comment directed mainly at people like champ and mr nyjet that like to complain, just to complain. Whenever there is something good, they'll find something to complain about, especially with Chad. The guy throws two absolutely beautiful passes to Coles in the first game, but do you hear anything positive about that game out of them afterwards? Nope. They waited until a point in a game where they thought he was trying to throw a Hail Mary, to come out and say "see, he can't throw it deep". I can absolutely guarantee that if he threw the ball 60 yards, they would complain he can't throw it 70. It's just the way people like those two are. They just want so desperately to be right. That's why champ says all of our players suck. It's easier to say everyone is bad and then when a player IS bad, jump up and shout "see, I was right all along".
That is exactly the point. If Chad is a top 10 QB which in this league ain't saying alot we should put some serious points on the board against the Bills. We jump on this team and get a lead they aren't beating us. The mentality of some around here is like the modern day soccer mom. Let's not keep score and hurt any one's feelings. This is the big stage, if your the man and your a veteran this is our season, put up.
He's 30 and with his style, he can play til he's 40 if healthy. He is the 3rd ranked passer in the NFL and you just dismiss it like it's not a fact because it hurts your argument. He has won 2 playoff games, one single-handedly on the road in San Diego with a torn rotator cuff. I don't know what more you want from this guy. Marino never won a SB, Manning hasn't, and I can go on and on and on. If Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson can win a SB, how in the world can't Chad? He is head and shoulders better than both of them, not to mention Brad Johnson doesn't exactly have a gun either. And you're going to say well they had great defenses...EXACTLY! Who was the last SB champ that didn't have a great defense? Let's go through the past 6 SB's...Ravens, Pats, Bucs, Pats, Pats, Steelers...ALL GREAT DEFENSES. You have to get over this arm strength thing. It is not THAT important! He can make every single throw he needs to in order to win a game. He's put up 300+ yard 2 weeks in a row with ABSOLUTELY ZERO running game. So far, he's showing everyone that for the past 4 years, he's had the "Hermcuffs" on. Now he's being trusted to call plays at the line and being allowed to sit in the shotgun. And what's happened? I said if before...he is the 3rd leading passer behind Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb. You have to get over it...he is a very good quarterback and more than adequate to lead us to a superbowl. Give him some support like a decent o-line and running game and maybe he'd put up even better numbers! He is here to stay...Mangini loves him, his teammates love him...they openly admit he is the heart and soul of the team. Yet you think they're just going to cut him because of a 2nd round draft pick who looked like shit in the time he's been given. I think Clemens will be a pretty good QB in this league...but if Chad stays healthy, Clemens won't be starting here for a long, long, long time.
That was sort of my point though, when there's a discussion going on and someone comes in with blanket statements about how they perceive the attitude of "some people" on the board it sort of shuts the discussion down. I don't mean to jump all over you but it's just a bit of a pet peeve of mine, I guess I've just seen too many Mets/Yankees threads in the BS forum. I know you and champ have clashed in the past but I think he's doing good work in this thread. He's been pretty consistent stating that he doesn't think Pennington has a big enough arm to stop the opposing D from loading up the box. You may not agree with him but it certainly is a reasonable opinion that he's backed up in this thread.
constantly having to go back and quote those posters is often redundant and unnecessary....... you post your way, I'll post mine, thanks. My post was meant to show agreement with the post I quoted, not to debate any others which has been done ad nauseum.
Backed up in this thread by using the Hail Mary as his example. How many bombs is Chad going to have to throw before people say "hmm...maybe he can throw a deep pass"? A QB should NEVER be judged by his Hail Mary pass. If they were, we'd still have Browning "I can throw it through the uprights from my knees" Nagle. How many times is it really necessary to heave the ball on a pass like that? If you have to rely on a Hail Mary pass every game, you are doing something wrong and have bigger problems than the QB. Honestly, I think opponents are stacking the line to confuse our young line more than anything else. Chad has thrown some really nice long passes the last two weeks, and has surprised a lot of people. I really wanted to stick behind him, but I admit, I had some doubts, but the arm strength seems fine. Sure, he can't throw it 70 yards, but I don't want the Jets to need a 70 yard bomb from him. Look at that floater of Tom Brady's on Sunday that was intercepted. It hung up there too.
Now were talking football, nice post BenGraham. Couple of things. He can't play until 40 at a very high level, the game is simply to fast it's not just arm strength its loss of muscle mass, eye sight, reaction time the whole package. He is already past his physical peak but he still is learning the game. In another year or two he will have peaked as a Pro Quarterback. He has about a 4 to 5 year window, which is perfect for this staff. Brad Johnson played every bit as good in 03 when Tampa won the SB as Chad did in 02. He also had a great D and a great running attack as you pointed out. A vast majority of SB were won by great QB with big arms who were absolute weapons because it's very difficult to build a team that can overwhelm other teams on D and O and win by having a manage the game mentality. It can be done but if you look at the road to the SB and the vast majority of teams that weathered the gauntlet big plays by QB’s against big time D's were usually needed. Another point, teams with no running attack tend to put up big yardage numbers by the QB, they also generally lose. I agree this team isn't a SB ready team but this team has some very good talent and the OL while terrible in the running game has shown the ability to pass protect adequately. This is a very important game for several reasons. It's a division opponent which if you want any chance at post season you have to win your share of those games. We already lost to the Pats who are also a division opponent. This game also keeps us in the hunt. We have a very tough few games coming and if we lose this game we are very likely to be 1 & 4. After a grueling camp with a new staff that's the last thing this team needs. I'm not saying we have a SB quality team this year. What I do believe is this game is a huge game for the heart and sole of this team. Pennington along with Coles, Ellis, Vilma, Rhodes and others have to step up and seize the moment. As you pointed out Pennington is the leader and the heart and sole of this team. He has the ball and is calling the plays, he has a chance to put a stamp on this season for not just himself but for the new staff. A win in Buffalo could very well jump start this team as a SB contender down the road. This is the kind of game that lets a team know they have a SB quality QB and if every one else does their job they can win a SB. I have been impressed with Pennington to date. I think he can take this team up a notch. That's what championship play is all about. By the way welcome to the board, nice to see someone new getting in the mix and backing it up.
I think it basically comes down to a matter of preference. With the Jets "reloading" this offseason you had the people that wanted to "roll the dice" on a superstar QB and those that were hoping Pennington could be the guy. I'll admit that I was in the former camp. It's not even that I think Pennington is a bad player, I just feel like it's easier to build a team around a QB then saying "Well, we've got this pretty good QB, now we just need to put talent all around him and we're set". Not to mention that he has been injury prone and just hit the wrong side of 30. In today's NFL I think it's fairly easy to make the jump from a really bad team to an "OK" team with a few key players and shrewd management. We've seen that "OK" Jets team with Martin and Pennington the last few years. What I want to see as a Jets fan is a team that is truly on the level of the elite teams in the league. This may or may not result in a championship(it didn't in 98) but I think that's really all you can hope for as a fan. To try to steer this back on topic a bit I think it's going to be another couple seasons at minimum before the Jets can turn over the roster sufficiently to call themselves one of the elite in the AFC, and where Pennington is going to be at that point is anyone's guess. He has certainly showed you some things over the first 2 weeks, particularly the TD drive to beat the Titans after they tied it up, but it's a long season. I do think the arm strength is always going to be an issue though, people see him having success floating the ball in there and imagine what a QB with a rocket arm could do. Of course it's never that simple. The jury is definately still out IMO and this week in Buffalo is a big test.
I think Pennington has the ability to age well as an NFL QB because his strengths aren't the things that leave you when you get into your 30s. He doesn't have a rocket arm or beat you running, he's smart, composed and a field general--the things that get better with age. The biggest thing he has to do is stay on the field, learn to go down correctly (like Curtis Martin always did) and slide when he has to slide. He's gotten hurt by falling awkwardly on his hand vs the Giants in 2003 and not sliding when he should have in 2004. Look at some of the QBs who have won or gone to the Super Bowl in recent years, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Trent Dilfer, are any of them any better than Chad? I don't think so. Chad has already been through a lot here and if he can stay on the field I think he could still be the team leader in a couple years if we reach the level we're talking about. It doesn't take five years to get there anymore, usually two or three at the most. Everybody would love to have the John Elway or Tom Brady, but it's not necessarily essential to be an elite team.
I think Gannon is better, Johnson is debatable and Dilfer is worse. To be fair though, Gannon didn't come into his own until he was 35 years old. And as I said it's not that I don't think Chad can be successful, all things being equal I just would've preferred to go in another direction. The Jets really had no "identity" as a team coming into the season. Huge question marks at the offensive skill positions and far from an elite defense that's good enough to let you skimp a bit on the offensive side of the ball. The Jets decided to go the OL route, and it's hard to argue with that. I agree with your premise that you don't need a HOF gunslinger to win in the NFL, but I sure would love to have one. IMO the Jets still have quite a ways to go before they could claim themselves to be an elite team with Pennington at QB.
So take the big-armed guy...just realize you're going to lose ALOT of accuracy and have to deal with a lot of INT's. I mean do you people just ignore Testeverde's game as Jet? He was exactly what so many of you cry for. He had an absolutely cannon...and he killed this team with huge, costly INT's! I'll give you a baseball anology. The same people saying "wow just imagine if we had a big armed QB...think about how even more throws he can make" are the same people that are probably bitching about their 2nd basemen over the past 3 years because they couldn't hit homeruns like Soriano. Guys like that come around once in a blue moon. And relating it back to football, how many QB's have had rocket arms but great accuracy? I can think of one...Peyton Manning. And how many superbowl's has he won with 3 enormous weapons on offense and an amazing o-line? ZERO. I really believe some of you would rather go to war with an empty bazooka than a loaded pistol.
Testeverde carried the 98 team that came the closest to winning the SB since the strike year. Testeverde may have had the single best season in Jets history since 67/68. Namath was also a interception machine, lead us to a SB. Elway, Favre, Bradshaw, Staubach, Sims, Doug Williams, Plunkett all huge armed QB's all threw INT's all have rings.
And out of all of them, who has the most rings? Montana...the guy with the below average arm. And then Brady who has an average arm (at best) has 3 rings...
Bradshaw has 3 and Brady has a solid arm and Montana had a much better arm than Chad. I doubt we would be 6.5 point underdogs against the Bills with Montana as our QB. Let's see Chad beat them with this team.
And if he does, will you offer a formal apology? And Montana did not have a "much better arm than Chad" by any means. Also give Chad Jerry Rice and see what he can do...
It was more than Rice, he had Walsh a great OL and a pretty good D. He did no better than Kreig, Gerbac and Bono when he went to KC while Young won a SB with the same team. Even Montana was discarded so if you don't think Chad who hasn't won anything is guaranteed anything, I don't think so. He has to do more than put up stats, he has to win with the team he has. I think he can so I don't have to apologize for anything. I find it amazing that the same people who adore Chad don't expect the team to win with him.
The OL did a nice job in pass protect in the Titan game and in the second half of the Pats game after Jones was moved to guard. The Pats have one of the best front 7's in football. I expect the pass protect to improve and Barlow is probably going to get alot more carries. All good things. Montana won with out a running attack, for the most part Craig was a pass catching RB. In 18 playoff games he had two games over 100 yards and 11 under 50 yards. He had one big rushing year in 88.
While I respect your opinion, I have to disagree that Sunday's game vs the Bills is the crossroads of Pennington's career. Nor do I agree that his future at QB depends on his performance and whether the Jets win or not. You are overlooking some things. First, the season is long. Just as some who criticize Pennington say you can't put too much stock in two games, the some holds true for putting it all on Sunday. Second, Pennington already stepped up and put one in the books for the Jets against the Titans. He won that game singlehandedly. T Third, you are underestimating the Bills and the match up problems they cause for the Jets. The Bills defense has been lights out this year. The Jets can't run and showed an inability to give Pennington time against NE. After the way Buffalo dismantled Miami last week, it doesn't bode well for the Jet offense. Pennington could be great, but with no running game and defenders draped on him, he won't be able to make plays. Throw in that Coles is hurt and . . . . There is a reason the Jets are six point underdogs. Fourth, the Jet defense has not shown that it can stop the run or pressure the QB. As bad as the Bills offense can be, I don't see the Jets completely shutting them down. Fifth, the Jet special teams have had a serious break down two weeks in a row. First, Nugent leaves 7 points on the field against the Titans, then Graham gets off a 10 yard punt at a crucial point before half time that leads to 7 points. So, considering that the Jets are playing with two rookie linemen, have not found a left guard to replace an injured Kendall, have Moore at right guard (who has been terrible) , a RT who is starting his third game, running backs who are other team's trash, and a DL that is not built to play the 3-4, how is it all on Pennington this week. If he is sacked 4 times, throws for 250 yards and a score and a pick, the Jets still can't run, and the defense can't stop the run, and the special teams break down again, would it be Pennington's fault if the Jets lost 17-10???? As for your comment about Pennington running out of bounds before Graham's shank, I think that criticism is out of line. It's one play and why risk injury? Should he have dove head first and taken a hit in the shoulder (that play against Buffalo two years ago started the whole shoulder thing) or should he have slid and taken one in the chin or back like Trent Green?? The bottom line is that, with the ball near midfield, a decent punt would've meant that nobody remembered Pennington's play. Lastly, recent years have shown that a big time strong armed QB is not needed to win a SB. Look at the teams that have won the last few SBs and you see that it is defense and a running game that if far more important - Pittsburgh, New England, Tampa Bay, Baltimore. Where is the big passing games and big armed QBs on those teams? Even Elway didn't win until he had Davis running the ball. I think he threw for under 100 yards against the Packers in 1997. The Jets have neither a defense nor a running game right now. Pennington is left to "shoulder" the load. To put winning and losing all on him is just not fair or logical.
Pittsburgh won the SB as a direct result of a big armed QB making a big play in the SB. Ben has one of the strongest arms in the league. He was completely out played in the QB rating game by his opponent. In one play before half time he sprinted out to the left and throw a ball across his body down to the 1 yard line and the Steelers scored right before halftime. A play that a handful of QB's in the NFL could make with their arm. It changed that game to the Steelers favor. They absolutely lose without that play. NE had a huge passing day against the Eagles and if they didn't they lose. Brady has a bigger arm than Chad and he also has a much quicker delivery. NE was in a dog fight in two SB and without big plays by the QB under pressure they lose both of them.
