Actually, what I think is that most GMs still have their heads stuck in the sand when it comes to Option football in the NFL. Again, look to 2011, when everyone was saying "you can't run that in the NFL". Then, look to this year where suddenly, guys are geniuses for incorporating Read Option into their offenses. Now, to another parallel. Just about all the other GMs in baseball looked at Oakland and thought they were crazy. Trading away their "best" players and signing guys that no one else wanted. Did you watch Moneyball ? Are you familiar with the story ? What happened is that they went against the CONVENTIONAL WISDOM and started looking at other metrics by which to make decisions. The NFL is notoriously slow in changing attitudes. How long did it take for the WCO to really spread ? For the most part, other coaches didn't adopt it or really even copy it. It wasn't til Walsh disciples left SF and got coaching gigs of their own before it really took off in the NFL. Look at NE with the No huddle, hurry up offense. They've been doing it for a number of years yet just this year, did it come to prominence, and even then, very few teams do it. Most NFL teams will line up 4 or 5 receivers if the Defense shows 8 or 9 in the box, specifically because it means some of their receivers are guaranteed to be open and it will be a big play. But not Denver. In the first 3 quarters, they rarely, if ever, dictated the coverages to defenses. Are you stupid enough to actually believe that if Denver had spread 5 WRs out wide, that opposing teams would have said "Fark it, leave them open cause Tebow can't hit them" ? Are you really that damned dumb ? Hell son, why only run 9 in the box then ? Teams wouldn't have even covered Decker and DT. Under your stupid assed logic, they would have gone with 11 in the box. Actually, every coach who has ever been heard from has said that Tebow has a pretty high football IQ. The one question is how quickly he can process the information he is seeing and make decisions. As for mastering the playbook and his actual skillset, again, as usual, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Actually, coaches aside, it very much is that you have no frakking understanding of what is being said. Seriously dude, you don't know shit about football. I know some 8th grade girls that have a much better understanding of the game. Really ? Show me where the Jets backed off on that 95 yard drive. Again, you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that fucking Cover 2 is a NORMAL FUCKING DEFENSE for many teams, as opposed to a "prevent" defense. Nor do you seem to understand that when an offense puts more receivers out on the field running a Spread Offense, defenses MUST adapt and change their coverage schemes. Nope, instead, you come up with some brain dead idea that teams are just going to leave receivers uncovered. It's understandable that you can't figure it out, it's because you lack the capacity to do so. Elway didn't want a dual threat QB. He is operating under the belief that the way to win is to have the QB stand in the pocket, like Peyton Manning, and either throw the ball or hand it off. If you put Tebow in a Spread Offense similar to the one run by the Saints or the Pats, he probably wouldn't do that well as he wouldn't be a threat to run. Then, instead of stacking the box, teams would actually flood the secondary in zone coverage. Tebow isn't accurate enough at this point to throw the types of passes needed against such defenses. BUT, if you put him into a Spread Option offense where he does run, that changes the coverages that he would face. Now, we're back to the age old question of dual threat QB, and whether a coach wants a QB running the ball. IF his career ends after this year, it will be because teams were too stupid and shortsighted in understanding how to use him, just like the Jets were this year.
Yeah, it was at the senior bowl or something like that. Granted, it wasn't a ringing endorsement for Tebow, but he at least admitted to being stubborn about playcalling.
I think Tim has what it takes for any coach to mold him into the perfect QB. He just needs guidance and some team/coach that will let him actually play football games.
But Timmy has already worked with some pretty good coaches - Marc Trestman prior to the draft. Trestman is the new Bears HC, but at that time he was one of the most respected "QB gurus" around - prepping top prospects like Jay Cutler for their combines and pro days. Josh McDaniels, the Denver HC who drafted Timmy. He is credited with how well Cassel performed filling in for Tom Brady. Mike McCoy, part of the reason he got the Chagers gig were the performances he wrung out of QBs like Delhomme and Orton. Tebow has worked over long periods of time with at least three QB coaches with reputations for getting the most out of any QB. It's valid to wonder at this point if it's Timmy and not the coaching...
Well... yeah. Why keep playing to Tebow's weaknesses if they don't have any faith in his passing. They knew what his strengths were, and stuck with it, and people act like they were sabotaging him by sticking with Tebow's strong suit.
Yet in the 4th quarter of many games, it was Tebow's PASSING from the Spread that got Denver back into games. Hmmmmmmm.
Well, here's the thing. I don't think 32 GMs have their "heads stuck in the sand" with option football. I mean, sure, option football had its critics, and a lot of blue haired old farts said it would never work. But teams have been looking at this for awhile now, even before Tebow came into the league. Some say Tebow is the first, a pioneer of a sorts with option football, but that is a load of horseshit. Teams have been looking at it. Michael Vick turned that Falcons into a playoff team with it. It was part of the thought process when Vince Young was drafted, and that did some good things in his first years. There were other running quarterbacks used. Pittsburgh experimented with it with Kordell Stewart. Randal Cunningham was good with it a generation or so before. Donovan McNabb made a name for himself with it. Jake Plummer did a fine job with it at times. WildCat was being showcased by Miami before Tebow did anything in the NFL too. No, option injected into NFL playbooks is nothing new. Thing is, the option CAN work, but you need to have a QB that can do more than just take long shots with his arm. This is why the option seems to be taking off with Tebow on the bench. So I'm not gonna argue that the style Tebow is trying to play here can't work in the NFL, cuz I agree it can work. I just don't think Tebow has the most important tool... a legitimate passing threat. Sure, he can hurl the ball downfield, but he just can't dissect a defense like many other can. Are you stupid enough to think the Broncos never thought about lining up more wide receivers? Watch some of those games again and see how much he hesitated to throw even to open guys at times. Watch what happens when he sees a guy running in unblocked. he's not even looking for a checkdown or an open guy, he's already tucking it in at that point and runnign for it. That worked a lot more when teams ran blitzes rather than containment schemes. Even when they DID try quick shots with 3 or 4 wideouts, he'd too often be off the mark. So yeah, I think part of why they didn't line up 5 wides is a reflection of that. I just don't believe the passing problems Tebow was having were as simple a fix as lining up 5 wides. ...and my logic doesn't call for 11 in the box. they still needed a couple guys back there. Pittsburgh got burned on a couple plays where Thomas got back there. Minnesota did too. Really? They dumbed the offense down to a vanilla one right after the switch and he couldn't even run that one. So they started running the ball more because that is what Tebow was good at. You have a QB who can't hit the broad side of a barn, but can run extremely well.... what do YOU do? Pass? ....ummmm, okay. I'm sure Elway would have LOVED to have a dual threat. However, Tim Tebow isn't a dual threat. Teams simply don't respect his arm, and aside from a few strikes, he's given them little reason to do so. errrr... so if the Broncos ran the spread to break out the 9 in the box, are you saying he wouldn't do that well against flooded secondaries? Then why are you advocating more of it then? to open up more running lanes? If his career ends after this year, it will be because he failed to establish himself as a passer. Not because people are shortsighted. Seriously, his passing is his biggest problem. I don't know why quarterbacks with shitty passing skills aren't a problem for you, but I can tell you one thing.... ...the league simply does not see Tebow as a dual threat QB. Elway didn't. The jets didn't. Many analysts don't. Many players don't. At some point, you're gonna have to take a hard look at Tebow being Tebow's problem. it isn't because they are afraid to think outside the box or lack imagination. they simply see better options out there than Tebow to execute their vision. I guaran-fucking-tee you, that if he were seen as a competent passer around the league to go along with all those other things, he'd either still be the Broncos franchise player, or starting for some team making them an instant contender. I know you see enormous potential in him. It shows when guys like Backup QB a few months back would make Jacksonville an instant contender. But until he gets past that bad rap as a horrid passer, THAT is what is goign to end his career. Not some stupid fear of running the option.
Nope. Bend but not break defenses. giving Tebow time to think and not hurring him. I'll concede Tebow has that little bit extra edge when the game was on the line. guys like Orton failed in that situation. But I just don't buy that it was all about the spread option and the solution was that simple and there all along. guys are too smart in the NFL to overlook it, yet some blogger tebow cheerleaders like you are the only ones that can see it. Some other GM would see it too and be looking to get Tebow on their team at any cost.
Don't know that its even worth reading the rest of your post, as this was enough to laugh at. You saying "I DON'T THINK...." Again, YOU don't have any credibility. YOU have proven time and time again that what YOU think isn't even close to factual or truthful. In short, YOU "thinking" has been shown to be both a detriment and a serious problem.
This shows that you really have no clue about Spread Option offenses. I'''l try to be simple and straight forward for you. Tebow isn't accurate enough to hit really tight passing windows like Brady or Rodgers can. BUT, those really tight windows normally only come against zone defenses where you have to put the ball between two defenders. When Brady or Brees drop back in a spread formation with 4 or 5 receivers, teams dont have to worry about them running the ball. So, the defense's best course of action is to go with zone coverage. With Tebow, that changes. IF a team goes with zone coverage, then Tebow can just take off running the ball for 9 to 15 yards per clip. Teams have to stop him from running, so, they bring defenders out of the zone coverage and put them in the box. This gives him man coverage on receivers which opens things up. Go back to that one playoff game against the Pats where the Jets dressed something like 10 DBs for the game. IIRC, at times, they rushed 4 guys and had 7 guys flooding the secondary, clogging up passing lanes and covering the "soft" parts of normal zones. What would Tebow do against that ? He definitely wouldn't throw unless someone got beat deep. He would run. Going back to the previous point. How do you stop Tebow from running ? Stack the box. How does an offense prevent the defense from stacking the box ? By spreading the field with receivers. IF I spread 5 guys out wide, you HAVE to cover them. HAVE TO. That means a minimum of 5 guys out in coverage, leaving you with 6 guys for the box. If you try to double cover the #1, that leaves 5 guys in the box against 5 Oline, leaving Tebow uncovered. IF you try and run cover 2 with man under against 5 wide, that leaves 4 guys in the box against 5 oline with Tebow uncovered.
Umm... ...couldn't a Defense just go to a nickel and keep the 2 remaining LBs in to spy Tebow against the run?
...and all that would work.... BEAUTIFULLY, I might add... if Tebow were indeed a dual threat QB. But alas, he is not. He flat out sucks throwing the ball. That is the central point to just about all of the criticisms to Tebow's game.
Sure, they could. But let's look at it. Presume the team runs a base 4-3 D. So, 4 DLinemen + 2 LBs to spy. That's 6 guys in the box against 5 Oline and Tebow. Thats not "stacking the box". Additionally, since you have 6 in the box and have 5 DBs covering the 5 receivers, that's all 11 of your defenders, i.e. cover 0. Can all 5 of your DBs play tight man to man and stay with the receivers ? Your top 2 guys probably can, but what about the other 3 ? Then, look at the matchups. Which DBs are you going to use against the TEs ? Not playing semantics here, but 5 receivers doesn't have to mean 5 WRs. It could be 2 WRs, 2 TEs split out wide and a RB/HB coming out of the backfield and out into patterns, or motion him out into the slot. Even with Tebow, I'd be happy if you went man to man cover 0. I''d tell him to throw all day. He might only hit 48% of his passes, but the ones he does he will be for large gains.
Oh, I can debate just fine, and have done so for year, going back to debate team in high school. That said, my ability to debate in no way prevents me from pointing out that your "thinking" is a large part of the problem here.
No, it isn't. Some have advocated that, but not me. I've suggested tight man coverage and containing Tebow in the pocket. Why couldn't a Defense's 3rd or 4th back keep up with a 3rd or 4th WR? I'd argue that the balance starts to tip toward the defenders. Offensive talent drops off more than defensive talent does because of the need for superior ball-handling skills. I disagree here as well. Part of the reason Tebow did so well in college is that his WRs routinely got at least 2-3 steps of separation. That gave him a big enough window to complete passes. In the NFL, WRs are "wide open" if they've got half a step. The coverage is generally far too tight. Tebow throwing more often is Tebow throwing into less desireable situations. So his 48% completion rate would take a hit and you'd see his picks increase as well..
You're the one that thinks Tebow is a pretty good QB. You seem to be in the minority there, and none of the NFL teams seem to agree with you. So either, just about the whole planet has Tim Tebow pegged wrong as an NFL QB and have him totally misunderstood while you and others are the only ones smart enough to see it... ...you're one of last of the kool-aid drinkers who thinks his dirt missiles are no big deal, most of Tebow's shortcomings are someone elses fault, and that he pretty much carries a team by himself. Really... some of your ilk think Elway got rid of Tebow out of pure jealousy. Anyone a part of a group that thinks THAT way really shouldn't be calling people out on their "thinking."
I believe you are looking at it incorrectly. IF a DB is behind/trailing a receiver by a half yard, that's not really a "tight window" as the space in front of the receiver is open. Tight windows have more to do with zone coverages where you are trying to place the ball between defenders. Have to run do some actual work today. Let me take a sec to say that I appreciate and am enjoying this discussion and to say "thank you" for it
Wrong yet again. His dirt missiles were kind of a big deal, but that is a problem of mechanics, which is something that can easily be fixed. And no, I don't think Elway got rid of Tebow due to jealousy. I think he got rid of Tebow because he is sold on the notion that one can only win with a "traditional QB throwing from the pocket".
