So you made a silly argument about Peyton, then I showed you it applies to Brady, and now you are backtracking. You said Peyton hasn't given his all in a playoff loss, I said show me Brady's playoff loss where he does, there is none. So now you backtrack to "gives his team chances to win every year". This is a fun comment. So how did Brady give his team a chance to win against the Ravens last year? Was it the 0 second half points that gave his team a chance to win? Or the bad clock management at the end of the first half that helped? Was it the interception in the middle of the 4th quarter that helped? Again, another silly argument. There are so many argument why Brady is a great QB, yet you somehow are finding the ones that don't apply to him like giving it all in a playoff loss or always giving his team a chance to win. This is what I mean by silly arguments. These are just silly because a) They don't really back up the guy you arguing for b) They aren't tangible stuff, you can make up what "giving it his all" or "giving his team a chance mean" or be inconsistent with the meaning. c) They actually back up the OPs silly point that Brady isn't a good playoff QB since 2004. If we use his post and your "giving it all" and "giving his team a chance every year", Brady fails these tests too. But it's wrong, he's been a good to great QB post 2004. The difference has been the talent around him. If his defense was slightly worse from 2001-2004 he probably has 1 SB or 0 SB. If his defense was slightly better from 2004-present, he probably has 5 SBs. Brady's playoff play while has taken a very slight dip in some areas, and risen in other areas, isn't the main reason why the Pats have lost in the playoffs. HOWEVER, using your silly arguments, it seems like he should be at fault.
I am not backpedaling about anything, go through the playoff losses for each and Peyton was the main culprit 90% of the time while Brady has been the main culprit maybe 2-3 times. If Peyton Manning plays like he is capable of the majority of time in postseason he easily has 3-4 SB titles by now. he has elevated teams in the reg season and held them back in postseason. Brady has been very Peyton like post 2004 BUT he still has given his teams more chances to win w/ less talent.
You started with Peyton hasn't giving it his all in his playoff losses. I pointed out Brady hasn't done the same. You then say show me where Brady threw a pick 6, or shutout. So you went from giving his all to pick 6s and shutouts. Backpedaling. I asked for a playoff loss where Brady gave it his all. Then you said every year Brady gives his team chances to win but he has thrown up some clunkers. That backpedals from giving it your all. Then I showed the playoff game last year against BAL so it can't be every year he gives them a chance. Now you said Brady has been the main culprit 2-3 times when the previous comment was EVERY year he gives them a chance. Maybe this isn't backpedaling (although saying brady gives them a chance every year, then saying he is the main culprit 2-3 times is basically going back on the every year comment) but you just not keeping a consistent argument from the first point, giving his all in a playoff loss, something Brady and Manning in your opinion haven't done. Or at least Manning hasn't done in your opinion and something you haven't commented on about Brady or kind of mentioned. The main culprit thing is not effective either. You have to define what being the main culprit means and it's not a constant definition. We aren't then discussing tangible things, it's just me and you discussing your opinion on what main culprit means which is going to change based on the name on the back of the jersey. And the most annoying part of this argument in my opinion is that we would have to go through their wins and decide if the QBs were the main reason they won those games to be fair and thorough. This provides another whole argument based on a continuously changing discussion of what being the main reason as a QB means. The funniest part is, I'm saying that Brady has been a good postseason QB post 2004 and you are brining up Peyton Manning criticisms you have that then apply to Brady's postseason and makes him look worse in these weird terms. In reality, Brady's postseason play hasn't changed greatly pre 2004 and post 2004. The expectations for Brady have risen because of his early success and his historic regular seasons, so that might be why the perception is that his QB play has struggled post 2004. It just hasn't lived up to regular season achievements the Pats offense has hit, which is consistent theme of high scoring offenses in the playoffs.
Let's look at their playoff losses shall we? Manning: 1999: div rd at home off bye. Lose 19-16 in game they were favored by 5.5. led late TD to make score look closer than it was, ineffective most of the game. completed 19 of 42 passes. 2000: WC rd at Miami. Indy favored by 1.5. leads O to 3 pts over final 3 qtrs.(2nd half and OT) against legendary choking defense. 2002: WC rd at NYJ. NYJ favored by 6. SHUT OUT, you can win a game allowing 41 pts, you can't win one scoring ZERO. 2003: AFCC at NE. Pats favored by 3.5. Throws FOUR INTs, leads O to 14 pts. After game Polian complains to league about Pats DBs mugging Colts WRs, rule is changed to benefit Peyton... 2004: div rd at NE. Pats favored by 1 pt...despite rules changes to benefit Peyton he leads his O to THREE pts in another playoff choke. 2005: div rd vs. Pitt at home w/ bye. Indy favored by 8.5. Despite multiple gifts to keep Indy in game still comes up short. Obvious INT that would have sealed game was overturned then trailing by 3 at own 18 w/ over 2 mins left and all 3 TOs he goes 4 and out and takes sack back at Indy 2 to turn over on downs. Next play Pitt fumbles back to Indy and Indy returns near midfield. over minute left and 3 TOs, has 2nd and 3rd and 2 from Pitt 26. what does he do? 2 incompletions in EZ setting up longer FG for his K, he misses they lose. 2007: div rd w/ bye at home vs. SD. Indy favored by 11. FIRST time(and only one of 2 times) led O to more than 20 pts in playoff loss but 2 RZ INTs cost Indy at least 6 more points in 4 pt loss. 2008: WC at SD. Indy favored by 2.5. facing .500 team can't lead O to more than 7 pts in 2nd half. has ball late needing ONE 1st down to seal the game, not only does he fail but takes a sack at his 1 yd line forcing his P to punt w/ less room and setting up game tying FG to send game to OT where they lost. 2009: SB vs. NO. Indy favored by 4.5. leads high powered O to 7 pts final 3 qtrs. of game, trailing by 7 on a would be game tying drive he throws INT for TD to cost his team any chance. 2010: WC vs. NYJ. Indy favored by 2. Leads high powered O to just 16 pts, trailing by 2 late has ball needing one first down to a)get into better FG range and b)ensure the Jets don't get a chance to get one more possession. Fails to get that 1st down, sets up 50 yd FG which they makde for lead. Mark Sanchez takes over in similar spot as Peyton in '05 div rd vs. Pitt except Mark doesn't settle for long FG, he gets his K a chip shot and Jets win. 2012: div rd w/ bye at home vs. Bal. Den favored by 9. Despite receiving 14 points on STs returns still cannot find a way at home off a bye to win this playoff game. Throws 3 TDs that directly lead to 17 pts in a 3 point double OT loss including the INT that set up the GW FG for Baltimore. show me where he did all he could? show me where he made plays to win and his teammates let him down? show me the 8-0 yd drive like Brady in the SB only to watch his D blow it?
Brady's losses: 2005: div rd at Den. Den favored by 3. first playoff loss after 10 straight wins, Brady has subpar game. INT deep in Den territory returned to deep in NE territory changed game. Main culprit. 2006: AFCC at Ind. Indy favored by 3. Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney were his main weapons, let that sink in. despite that led O to 27 pts(more than any amount Manning has led his elite weapons to in a playoff loss). 2007: SB vs. NYG. Pats favored by 12.5. did not have great game, harassed by a great pass rush all game BUT w/ the game on the line late led O on 80 yd TD drive to give his team 4 pt lead. Unfortunately for him his D blew it and unlike the first 2 SBs the D blew there was not enough time to come back in this one. 2009: WC vs. Bal. Pats favored by 4. first home playoff loss, first one and done. had awful game in blowout loss. 2010: div rd vs. NYJ. Pats favored by 9.5. Struggled, our D played probably the best game they ever played under rex, harassing and confusing Brady all game. Tom was a main culprit in 28-21 loss w/ 7 pts in garbage time. 2011: SB vs. NYG. Pats favored by 7.5. again struggled against NYG's great pass rush but had team in position to win, "sure handed" Wes Welker dropped pass that probably would have sealed game late then the "great" Belichick D allowed GW TD. 2012: AFCC vs. Bal. Pats favored by 7.5. Played poorly but again another crucial drop by Welker cost NE a chance. May not have mattered unlike the SB the year before as Brady really struggled this day.
You just provided your opinion on those games. For the Patriots losses a) non Brady Patriots mistakes were mentioned b) poor play by non Brady Patriots were mentioned c) credit was given to how well opposing team played d) doesn't mention "failed first downs" e) mentions D blowing leads f) never mentions refs or calls For the Colts/Broncos losses a) not once was non Manning mistakes mentioned b) not once was poor play by non Manning players mentioned c) credit was not given to how well opposing team played d) mentions "failed first downs" e) doesn't mentioned D blowing leads f) mentions refs or a call Again, there are valid arguments to be made, but by not going in depth for both QBs, the arguments come off as poorly argued and misleading. For example, how do you only mention drops for one QB. To start, drops are hard to actually quantify, second it doesn't help when you only mention them when they help you try to make a point. Also, end of the day, this really doesn't help prove Brady is a good postseason QB after 2004. It just shows that your standards of giving it your all or being the main culprit points that Brady faltered big time post 2004 when in reality the expectations rose but the play didn't change much.
I really hope Peyton hoists the VLT this year so we get to see Junc and all the other Tammy Brady nut huggers squirm. What P Manning is doing after neck fusion surgery is flat out amazing.
actually I mentioned when he deserved blame. where were the dropped passes for peyton? where were the times the D blew late leads after 80 yd TD drives? if they existed for Peyton I would have discussed them. it's breaking perfectly for him again just like 2006- at least on the AFC side. they essentially get a bye to the title game w/ a mediocre SD team coming to town. they should win it like they should have in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2012.
Just like Brady and the Pasts should have won it in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 since he is so great and clutch, right? Gimme a break with this shit. You think Indy was favorites in 07? Brady and the boys choked when it mattered most, it was theirs for the taking and they fucked it up.
they shouldn't have won in 2005 or 2006. They should have in 2007, 2010 and 2011. My mistake on '07 for peyton. Remove that one. Actually Brady led his O 80 yds for a go ahead TD late when it mattered most in that SB, has Peyton ever done that?
why would that end the debate? Brady would still have more SB apps, more SB wins, more head to head wins, better record, better playoff record. peyton has never had to play w/ 2013 Pats talent and yet Brady has them as the #2 seed. yes, he only gets it done when the refs give him 5 downs:rofl: the refs tried to give manning a SB in 2005 by overturning an obvious late INT that would have sealed loss vs. Pitt and Peyton STILL couldn't even get the game to OT:rofl2:
I hate that talent argument bullshit from u Junc. Who the fuck were Eric Decker, Demarius Thomas, Julius Thomas, and Knowshon Moreno before Peyton Manning got there? SCRUBS.
The kicker missed the fg. You want him to take up kicking too? What happens if Brady's kicker misses in 01 or 03? Did Tammy Brady kick those winning FGs? You are a turd sandwich.
guys that won a playoff game with TIM TEBOW(except Thomas) he had 2nd and 3rd from the 26, took 2 shots at the EZ instead of getting the kicking version of him(great reg season, chokes postseason) closer. The only reason he had a shot was b/c they overturned an obvious INT then after failing on 4 downs and taking a sack inside his 5 the D forced a fumble and returned it near midfield w/ an eternity to play. better situation than Sanchez faced in the 2010 WC game where he got his K a chip shot for the win. turd sandwich? how old are you?
Junc's hatred of Manning is bullshit. I agree with most of what you are arguing. But, I will say that this is the most talented offense he's ever played in. There's a reason he signed in Denver - those guys made Tebow look good! It isn't a knock on Manning to say he's got a lot of talent around him right now. For one, his track record speaks for itself (for most people with a brain) and two - he broke virtually every single season passing record there is this year, so he's obviously getting the most out of that talent and helping those guys get even better.
So? Danny Amendola is a first round pick and apparently he is dog shit. What about bums like Jacob Tamme, Brandon Stokley, Austin Collie and Joseph Addai being solid players because of Manning.
Peyton makes everyone, I remember when I was told how Garcon and Wayne were all Peyton. It's the excuses of the Manning backers when they have nothing else. Peyton is great w/o a doubt(mostly in the reg season) but he ahs been surrounded w/ elite talent since day 1 in this league. I'd love to see what he could do w/ reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as his main weapons like Brady '06 or what he could do w/ what Brady had this year.
