When did I say Palmer sucks? And I didn't even mention Housh. Palmer missed half the season last year. And since you mentioned Housh, he did take a lot of redzone passes from Chad Johnson. So did Chris Henry (when he wasn't suspended). Regarding him going thru games with barely getting a catch in 2007 he had only 4 games of 3 receptions or less and only 4 games of less than 70 yards. In 2006 he had only 3 games with 3 or less receptions and 6 games with less than 70 yards. If that's what you call in a decline I'd hate to see what your expectations of other WRs would be. I'm not going to count the 2008 season because he was playing with a 3rd string QB for the majority of the year. EDIT - I want to add that I wonder how you can say Chad Johnson's play was erratic and not notice that Palmer's was as well. Because I watched a lot of Bengals games the last few years and Palmer did not play with much consistancy.
Am I making this up, or is he Keyshawn's cousin? Not that it's relevant or anything - I was just curious now that everyone's talking about him.
It hasn't been proven false; they simply are having a tough time demonstrating how they're related. I have cousins and aunties and uncles with zero blood ties to me, so I know what that's like.
When you blamed Chad's 'suckage' the last few years on QB issues. Speaking of which, Housh didn't seem to suffer as much with these QB issues. In fact, he did pretty well with these QB issues. Are you making the connection yet? They took these catches away from Chad Johnson, even with QB issues. You seem to want to argue for no real reason. I don't really care either way, but three years back would be 2006. That's the year I said he was erratic. 1 for 11, 4 for 31, 3 for 37, 3 for 32.... along with 11 for 260 and 2 TD and 6 for 190 and 3 TD's. Five of his seven TDs for the year in two games and a large chunck of his yardage too. Erratic production. And yes, for an 'elite' WR I do expect more than 3-4 catches and 50 yards in a game. You can pick and choose all you want. We're not gonna have a Carson Palmer throwing to Chad here either.... Who said I didn't notice Palmer's erratic play? Is Palmer the guy were talking about trading for in this thread?! Are we talking QBs at this point? NO. We're talking about Chad and if he's worth a first day pick and a new contract that would likely be required to obtain his services. I still don't think so. It's not like I said I hated the guy. I just don't think he's that good anymore. I prefer to spend a high draft pick on someone who will be around for awhile. Please don't argue with me anymore. It's not like this trade is actually going to happen. I just stated my opinion. If you don't agree with it, let's just agree to disagree.
Ooh yay!! I love these. I didn't say Palmer sucked. He has struggled with consistancy since his injury. Housh and Chad are two totally different receivers with different skill sets. Housh is going to benefit and catch more passes because he is the mid level receiver. Chad is the down field guy. If the QB is stuggling of course the down field reciever is going to see his production decrease a tad. It's not that complicated. But here's a look at their stats anyway. 2006 - Housh 90 - 1081 9 TDs 12 YPC 2006 - Chad 87 - 1369 7 TDs 15.7 YPC 2007 - Housh 112 - 1143 12 TDs 10.2 YPC 2007 - Chad 96 - 1440 8 TDs 15.5 YPC I'm guessing you haven't watched many Bengals games. Erratic fantasy football production yes. But he still had 11 games of 5 receptions or more. When Palmer's play is erratic that it does affect the play of the WRs? So, it is a relevent point. Even still Chad Johnson still put up huge numbers and was fairly consistent week to week. Yes, he had his monster games and duds, but every receiver does. This is a discussion board. If you post an opinion that others disagree with you will get a response.
The problem is you keep missing the point and your replies are often more about putting words in my mouth than having an actual opinion on the player. You blame Chad's production mostly on QB issues, yet that somehow doesn't translate to blame on Palmer? Yet, you blame Palmer's erratic play for Chad's production. Uhm, what??? Huh? You skipped 2008 stats (I assume intentionally): 2008 Housh: 92 904 9.8 4 2008 Ocho: 53 540 10.2 4 Housh nearly doubles Chad's catches and yardage, "with QB issues". Again, we don't have a healthy Palmer to throw the ball to Chad. Many on this very board would argue WE have 'QB issues'. 1+1=2. How does this make Chad worth a 1st or 2nd round pick and a new contract? Do you really believe this "down field receiver", as you called him, is really that great a fit for our run first offense at this point or are you just here to argue? I suspect it's the later. Also, how is your guess that I haven't watched a lot of Bengal games an 'opinion' on the player? It's not an opinion at all. It's just more BS. The funny thing is you made that guess after quoting me, BUT the comment you quoted was really a paraphrase of one of YOUR statements from one of your previous post. And I quote: "And since you mentioned Housh, he did take a lot of redzone passes from Chad Johnson. So did Chris Henry (when he wasn't suspended)." YOU said that, Not me! So basically you are saying YOU haven't watched a lot of Bengal games??? :smile: Not that it actually has anything to do with how well Chad would fit on our team. I just think it's funny. :smile: Sure Palmer's play affects Chad, just like Chad's play affects Palmer's. When Chad lets passes bounce of his hands in the end zone or when a 1st down is needed, it kills the drive and makes Palmer's look bad. When Chad doesn't run the right route and Palmer ends up throwing a pick or incomplete pass, it makes Palmer look bad. So yes, Palmer's erratic play affects Chad, just like Chad's erratic play affects Palmer. You're willing to lay all the blame on Palmer (and Housh and Henry and everything else), yet none on Chad. I happen to disagree with that point of view. There's no point in continuing cause you don't get what I'm saying (either intentionally or whatever) and I don't care enough about this topic to want to continue. We get it. You love Chad and think he's worth a day 1 pick. I don't. A 4th, maybe. Both our opinions on the matter are very clear. Now lets move on to a trade that might actually happen.
Yes, I did leave 2008 off intentionally. First Chad was injured. Second they had Ryan Fitzpatrick as their QB. Third Houshmanzadeh is the short pass receiver… plus it’s not like Houshmanzadeh had a great year either. He compiled a ton of receptions (like he’s done for the last few years). Not, that compiling receptions is necessarily a bad thing, but being the short receiver is going to be an easier option for the QB to get him the ball. I didn’t say he was worth a 2nd round pick. My whole argument is that he wasn’t as erratic as you made him out to be. And again, this is a discussion board. You posted an opinion that I felt was incorrect. I’m not arguing, I am simply pointing out why I feel you are wrong. If you just think you can make a post and no one will disagree or those that do disagree will not voice their opinion then you are sadly mistaken. Because they were the main target in the passing game in the Red Zone instead of Chad Johnson, you feel that somehow means they took receptions from him overall, even though he still caught 87 and 93 passes in 06 and 07 for 1300 and 1400 yards. No, that means they took TDs from Chad Johnson. That’s fine. I never said I was not willing to lay any blame on Chad. I’m simply making the point that there are a lot more issues going on than Chad is on the decline or his play is erratic. Of course not, considering you get all offended when someone has a different opinion than you. I never said Chad was worth a first day pick. I said if we had to give up a 2nd to get him we would need to get something else in return like possibly a 4th round pick. I personally think his value is a 3rd round pick. I also think he would provide the deep threat and playmaking ability we sorely lack at the WR position and have lacked at that position since Keyshawn was here.
I'm not so sure how injured Chad actually was other than the late season hammy..., but assuming all the above is true, who is our QB? Would we do better with a "short pass receiver" or a "down field receiver" in our run first offense and with our QB situation? If you say the short pass receiver will get more catches, then is the Ocho Cinco show really worth a high draft pick and a big new contract? You never seem to answer these questions. Also, I never said anything about Housh having a '"great" year. I stated he wasn't as erratic as Chad, even with the "QB issues". That's not praise for Housh. It was to counter your argument that all of Chad's problems were to be blamed on "QB issues". If Chad couldn't deal with Cincy's "QB isuses", hwo will he deal with ours? I said I noticed how erratic he was in 2006, when he was on my fantasy team. You then proceed to claim I based my whole opinion on fantasy stats. That's untrue. You then brought up stats from 2007 and choose 3 receptions as some magic number that somehow shows he's not erratic. I don't get why 3 catch shows he's not erratic, but whatever. My main point was that he was on the decline and that we should spend a 1st day pick on someone who will be here longer and will not cost as much as Ocho Cinco will in a reworked contract. And again, the POINT is you are not actually disagreeing with MY opinion. You are putting words in my mouth and making me defend myself against things I never said. YOU brought up the taking targets away thing as an excuse for Chad. I never mentioned anything about losing targets in the redzone or otherwise, except to paraphrase you. Which you then took as some strange proof that 'I' didn't watch that many Bengal games.... hmy: Every post you made prior to this one was excuse after excuse for Chad. If you can accept that some of Chad's decline has to do with Chad, we are not diametrically opposed on this matter. I'm not 'offended'. You haven't stepped over any lines or acted like a total jerk, as far as I can tell. I haven't added you to my kick in the nuts sig yet have I? :smile: I just found the misrepresentation (or maybe misunderstanding) of what I was saying and the constant making of excuses and quoting of stats that really have very little to do with what I said, a bit tiresome and annoying. I don't think 3 catches is a cut-off for showing consistency and I don't like the total season stats as an indicator because as I previously pointed out, a lot of his season production happens over 2, 3 or 4 games. If you don't thin he's worth a day 1 pick either, then we're pretty much in agreement. :up: Case closed! :wink: Mind if I ask why you didn't reply last night when you were online, but waited, what 11 hours to reply? How much time do you spend on this thread cause I just sit here and bash away at my keyboard. :smile:
First the injury issue he had is his shoulder as well as his hamstring. If you can't even tell me about his injuries why should I care about your opinion about how he has been "declining"? Chad Johnson is better than any WR we currently have on our roster. Of course he is worth an investment. I still never said he was worth a high draft pick. I am curious if you understand the roles Housh and Chad had on the team and how they differ. More importantly why Housh would consistently catch 5 to 6 passes every game and a TD every other game. I don't think getting a WR that can get downfield and get open can hurt our QBs. I watched Brett Favre try to throw the football to receivers who just weren't getting open. Getting Chad Johnson would only help our QBs and our team. Erratic from a fantasy point of view. He had 11 games of 5 or more receptions in 2006. In 2007 he had 9 games of 5 catches or more. And he averaged 15 yards per catch in both years. I bring up both of those years because you said he's been declining in recent years. Wouldn't 2007 be more recent than 2006? I used 3 catches as an example because you said: Aside from the lack of TDs, he went through games with out barely getting a catch or any yards. 3 receptions or less would be games with out barely catching a pass or getting any yards. Housh got the majority of the looks in the red zone which is why he had a lot more TDs than Chad gets. Housh received a lot of opportunities because he is the short quick pass receiver. I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand why "Housh is just that good"? Excuse? You are trying to place the blame all on him and I have continued to try to explain to you there were many other issues going on. huh? You said his play was erratic and you knew that because he was on your fantasy team. You also said that "he went through games with out barely getting a catch or any yards." So I used 3 receptions to show that those games were few and far between. Because I am assuming you are saying that he had many games with getting only a few receptions 3 receptions is a good indicator of "barely getting a reception" I also showed that there were many games where he was producing. Yes he did have a few huge games but he was also a pretty consistent player. OK good. I was watching LOST and American Idol last night. I may have been logged on, but I wasn't at the computer. I'm not sure why this even matters and why you would waste time on insignificant things.
Chad himself said the injury was not significant. He claimed to be fine a week after it happened. The serious of the injury was all speculation before that. The media even said he needed surgery. Did he get surgery this off-season? And you SHOULDN'T care so much about my opinion. Which is why I'm surprised at the effort you're putting into this. Just cause he's better than what we have doesn't make him worth a high draft pick. We don't have a punter, should we spend a high pick on one? Of course not. You just said we shouldn't spend a high draft pick, so what are you arguing about?!?! Seriously, what's the problem??? While Chad is still a good player, we are likely to be a run first, ball control team. Having a high paid down field receiver is probably not as valuable to us as picking up that extra DE/RB/TE etc... we could get with that pick. A young guy who could probably contribute to this team for more years thatn Ocho Cinco would. On top of which Ocho will impact the cap much more significantly than any rookie we draft. You say you'd give a 3rd rounder. I said a 4th. If that difference is the reason you're still on this, well, I don't know what to tell you. No. Erratic in that he'll catch 3 or 4 balls for 50 yards and no TDs for three weeks, then catch 9 for 180 and 3 TDs the forth. It makes his season stats look better, but doesn't show he wasn't a really significant factor, for a stud WR, in three of those four games. You can keep saying "fantasy" all you want. What I care about it how many yards and first downs he gets and how many TD's he catches. Also 3 catches is completely arbitrary. If he caught 4 for 35 yards, I still don't consider that to mean anything. And yes, I'm saying 50 yards for a 'stud' WR is barely any yards. BTW 2008 is even more recent; You should of included that year as well.... :wink: Try reading it a few more times. Maybe ask somebody you know for help. You're the only one talking about Housh and TD's.... You keep missing it and I'm tired of trying to explain it. I never placed "all" the blame on him. Again with putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said it was all Chad's fault. Show me where I claimed everybody else was perfect. I really would like to see it, but I don't think you'll find it. Huh? Incorrect and mis-characterization again. Please see above as I've already responded to this, multiple times in multiple posts actually. If it's good, shouldn't this have ended already?!?! :wink: Cause I logged on last night and saw that you were on, but didn't see a reply. I thought it was finally over, then this afternoon I saw you posted in the moring. ACK!!! :smile: I was wondering if you spend hours researching stats and composing a reply. Why are you wasting so much time on something as insignificant as my opinion that Chad is maybe worth a 4th rounder instead of a 3rd, when he won't be traded here for either???
It affected his play. Of course he?s going to say the injury wasn?t significant. So, is Chad still a good player or not? That?s what brought this whole back and forth on. Here are some quotes from you: Not worth the headache. He's gonna want a new contract or he'll sulk. He's lost a lot since he was a Pro Bowler; I don't think he's that good anymore. He does NOT show up to play "with exciting energy each and every Sunday." That's why he's sucked the last few years. Chad has been on a serious decline the last three years.I do not agree that he?s in a decline or that he?s sucked the last three years. I?ve brought up the underlying factors of what?s been going on in Cincy to you. Palmer hasn?t played well consistently, Housh and Henry are getting the Red Zone looks and last year he was playing with Ryan Fitzpatrick as his QB. And yet overall he?s still played well and put up good numbers. You shouldn?t use 2008 as an example because it?s a season where he had Ryan Fitzpatrick as his QB and he had numerous injuries. That's not a great example to use to show that he's in the decline. If you want to base your opinion on 2008 then fine, I'd rather look at the entire body of work. He had one 3 game stretch at the end of the 2006 season where he had 4 or less catches in each game. Other than that he did not have three games in a row of 4 or less catches. You brought Housh into the conversation not me. So you're saying Palmer sucks and that TJ Housh is just that good? I?m trying to explain to you what Housh?s role was and why he got more TDs and continued to have multiple 90+ catch seasons. You don?t get it and I understand. Really? He does NOT show up to play "with exciting energy each and every Sunday." That's why he's sucked the last few years. Really? These are your words not mine: Chad has been on a serious decline the last three years. And even if his season stats from three years ago look good, they came in a couple of meaningless games. He didn't actually have as good a year as his stats may indicate. I say that cause I had him on my fantasy team that year and noticed how erratic his stats were. Doing nothing for three games, then exploding for a huge game against a crap team. It's like when John Abarahm would get 3 sacks against the Dolphins when we were up 30-3, but did nothing when it was a close game. That was never really the issue I had with your opinion here.
And obviously you know more about his injury than he does.... Do you have something more than media speculation on this shoulder injury? I haven't seen any but would admit he was seriously injured if you show me something more than media speculation. Did he have shoulder surgery? Did he miss games at the start of the season? Was he pulled after landing awkwardly on the shoulder in any games? Seriously, answer a question. I've asked several in this thread and you've ignored them all.... BTW, EVERY player in the NFL plays with some sort of injury.... I said I was willing to give a 4th for him, so obviously I don't think he's absolute crap right? Maybe you're in the habit of giving 4th rounder for crap, but I'm not. I have not gone back and forth at all; the 'not worth it' was in reference to a high draft pick. He's not worth a high draft pick. Do you understand the difference??? If I didn't think he declined any, or was a headcase, and didn't think he'd require a big contract to keep happy, I'd be one of those saying give up a 1st day pick. Get a clue! Sheesh!!! Quit trying to take things out of context to make a fake point. If you can't do it without the BS, don't bother. Maybe it's a reading comprehension thing. If 2008 should be COMPLETELY ignored cause of Fitzpatrick, how can you completely count the years with a healthy Carson Palmer? Currently who does our starting QB more closely resemble? The #1 overall pick Palmer or some inexperienced/unproven guy trying to show he belongs in the league? Are we running the same pass happy offense as the Bengals did those years? No! Now I hope KC or Ratliff develop well, but I won't expect either to be like a healthy Palmer anytime soon. This is the team you want to stick Ocho Cinco on. Does it make sense to give a high pick for him? Oh wait, you don't want to give up a high draft pick, then what the fuck are you bitching about?!?! Keep trying. I wasn't praising Housh. It was a rhetorical to another one of your excuses for Chad. And YOU'RE the one who doesn't get it. Ocho Cinco would not be used the same way nor would he be as productive in our offense as he was in the Bengals' during their prime. I understand perfectly how Ocho and Housh were used. Sheesh! My GOD! You SUCK at context. Incorrect again. I was referring to the fantasy this, fantasy that. It won't make your argument any better. 3 catches means crap.... I've covered all this, see above.... So what the fuck is your issue? You need to convince me that Ocho Cinco's 'Hall of Fame' Jacket was actually really cool? You need to prove that Ocho is the same player from 2004/2005? What the fuck is the issue!?!?! You're doing all this just to show Chad is worth a fucking 3rd rounder? Get a life! :smile:
On a lighter note, as much as I find myself wanting to hate the woman in your av because she is a complete fame-whore, she has an absolutely slamming body.
This whole thing has been on a lighter note for me. While I find it a bit annoying, I also find it quite amusing. :smile: And yes, Heidi Montag has a slamming body. That's the only reason I've got her in my avatar. Now no "The Hill" spoilers please, I haven't watch a single episode yet! :wink:
Well, after you do that. Could you just lock the thread? I honestly don't care. You can even have the last word. It would be even better if some higher up locks it before you get to argue why Ocho Cinco is worth a 3rd rounder. Not a 4th, not a 2nd, but a 3rd! Or maybe a 2nd with a 4th coming back our way.... You win okay? I give up! I officially declare that I believe Chad Ocho Cinco is worth a 3rd rounder and we as Jet fans should all pray that it happens! :lol: Happy!?!?! :rofl:
