The Giants were 5-2 w/ Kurt before falling to 5-4 before they beagn the Eli era. They would finish that season losing 6 of 7 w/ Eli. It wasn't vintage Kurt warner but that had more to do w/ him recovering from the thumb problem(he wouldn't have a good year until 2007) and other health related issues than talent around him. Tiki had 1500 yds on almost 5 YPC which is ridiculous, he added another 52 recs for almost 600 yds. They also had Shockey and Toomer and would add Plax in his prime a year later. They have had excellent offensive talent pretty much since day 1 for Eli.
They had talent, but it was mostly overrated. Shocky and Toomer were way overrated. Tiki had stats because Tiki was the offense. I think the weapons the Giants have had in recent years are much better for Eli and aided in his improvement. Hakeem Nicks, Manningham, Cruz etc.
Shockey was a top TE in the league, Toomer was very underrated. he was hitting he decline years of his career but he was a very good WR and a perfect compliment to Plax once they got him in Eli's first full year starting. The WRs they have had recently have been the best but that doesn't mean the early guys weren't good. he's always had very good talent around him, credit the Giants for doing that- it is something we should have been doing w our QB.
Keller was comparable to Shockey. Holmes, Edwards and Cotch were better than anything Eli had early on. Thomas Jones and Ladainian Tomlinson were better than Tiki, or at the very least comprable. Sanchez actually had much more talent around him in 09 and 10 than Eli had early on. Sanchez had dick last year, but that is a whole different story.
I like Dustin Keller, he is a good pass catching TE. He was never at any point at the level of Shockey when Shockey was younger. Thomas Jones 2009 was really good but Jones was hurt and ineffective late in the year. LT 2010 had a great first month and was average the rest of the year. Neither were anywhere near as good as Tiki was at that point. Tiki was on a level w/ LT in his prime at that point. At no point has Sanchez ever had more talent than Eli, even as a rookie Eli had more and starting in year 2 when he had Plax it just wasn't a contest. Sanchez had quality weapons but never elite talent.
Shockey's best season: 2005: 891 yards 7 tds. Dustin Kellers best season: 2011. 815 yards, 5 tds. Shockey had Eli Manning throwing to him that year. Keller was stuck with Sanchez. Hell Keller might end up being better than Shockey. We'll know if he ever gets to play with a real NFL level QB. Mark Sanchez's 2010 team was way better than what Eli had early on.
Shockey was very overrated because of his mouth. He was a good TE but never was he an elite TE in the way that a guy like Tony Gonzalez or Antonio Gates were. He was essentially Algee Crumpler in a big market with a good QB.
it's not as simple as straight #s. avg. recs per game(Keller as a Jet, Shockey as a giant): Shockey: 4.5 Keller: 3.3 prorate over 16 games: JS: 72 DK: 53 tds per game: JS: .33 DK: .24 prorate over 16 games: JS: 5 DK: 4 Shockey was a 1 time 1st team all pro and 4 time PBer, DK never was close to even a pro bowl. Eli has ALWAYS had better weapons than Mark by the way, Shockey was 1st team all pro w/ Kerry Collins as his QB and 2005 Eli was basically Mark Sanchez.
I think he was underrated b/c of his mouth. If he was ever used the way those other guys were used he would have put up similar #s. if current Eli had 2002 Shockey now(assuming no off field issues) they'd break records.
I think he got a lot of attention because of his mouth that he otherwise wouldn't have. I can find a few other TE's from the same era that put up similar numbers but didn't get nearly the attention.
So what's your point, Keller has comparable numbers despite catching less passes? Take their best years, again 2005 for Shockey: 65 receptions on 121 targets (53% catch rate) 891 yards 7 tds. Keller's best year which was 2011: 65 receptions on 115 targets (56% catch rate) 815 yards 5 tds They're very similar if you look at the stats instead of relying on your opinion. There is no need to make up stuff like "AVERAGE RECEPTIONS". Just look at their targets, receptions yardage and tds. Keller was just about as productive as Shockey despite having a much shittier Quarterback and being thrown to less. As these numbers show (and anyone who watched the two without buying into HYPE) they're very similar players as far as pass catching. Not even close, but you can keep playing with the numbers to pretend that if you'd like. The only weapon Eli had early on that was better than what Mark had in 2010 was Eli. Kerry Collins is better than Mark Sanchez. As far as Eli being Mark Sanchez in 2005, he was actually marginally better than every Sanchez season except one: Eli Manning in 2005 (his first full starting year): 75.9 passer rating. Mark Sanchez 2009 (his first full starting year): 63.0 Just for fun here are the other years: 2010: 75.3 The year everyone thought was so great. 2011: 78.2 2012: 66.9 Eli is much better than Sanchez, Keller is comparable to Shockey, and the 2010 Jets had way more talent than the 2005 Giants.
is being an all pro better than not being an all pro? and #s tell part of the story- were these #s accumulated in garbage time or were they mostly in meaningful spots? I don't know but what I do know is Shockey elevated the giants day 1, that team was supposed to suck in 2002 and he lit a fire into that team and they made a run to the playoffs. Did keller ever have an impact like that? Eli started 7 games in 2004 after sitting behind a future HOFer, is it fair to compare that to mark's rookie year where he was the starter day 1 and had Kellen Clemens to lean on? Eli 2005 vs. Mark 2010 is a better comparison: Eli: 294-557, 52.8%, 3762 yds, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 11-5 record, 0-1 in playoffs- SHUT OUT at home Mark: 278-507, 54.8%, 3291 yds, 17 TDs, 13 INts, 11-5 record, 2-1 in playoffs Let's compare weapons: RBs: NYG: Tiki Barber- 1860 yds on 5.2 YPC, 9 rush TDs 54 recs, 530 yds, 2 rec TDs NYJ: LT/Greene- 1680 yds, 4.2 YPC, 8 rush TDs, 68 recs, 488 yds, 0 Rec TDs Big edge NYG WRs: NYG: Burress/Toomer: 136 recs, 1898 yds, 14 TDs NYJ: Edwards/Cotch/Holmes: 146 recs, 2083 yds, 15 TDs we needed 3 players to basically equal the production of 2 edge: NYG TEs: Shockey: 65-891, 7 TDs in 15 games Keller: 55-687, 5 TDs in 16 games Eli and mark are very comparable through their early parts of their careers, the biggest difference was Mark had immediate postseason success where Eli didn't succeed until his 3rd trip to postseason. Eli had much more to work with as far as offensive weapons. If we switch the QBs we still lose 2 title games, NYG still wins 2 SBs.
