Maybe the New England scouts hated Tee Martin. Maybe Cowher would have been steered clear of Martin. Maybe the Patriots would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger. Forgot about the hypotheticals. What happened happened. Cowher won 161 games and a Super Bowl.
First of all, I have to nitpick something. If you saw Lombardi, you also had to see Brown. Brown coached his final game in the 1975 AFC Playoffs. Lombardi coached his final game in 1969. Dungy retires today and he would not be inducted. He's going to need a Super Bowl win OR about another 100 wins if he does not win a Super Bowl. Dungy has 122 wins. Knox has 193 wins. Knox is not in the PFHOF. I don't see anything right now that would point to Dungy as having coached better than Knox. Schottenheimer is close. If he wins a Super Bowl, it will be a no-brainer. He'll be inducted. If he does not win a Super Bowl and were to retire after this season, he'll still probably make it. But it wouldn't be a slam dunk. The two top coaches are Lombardi and Brown. For what it is worth, here are my next 8: 3. George Halas 4. Joe Gibbs 5. Bill Walsh 6. Curly Lambeau 7. Hank Stram 8. Don Shula 9. Chuck Noll 10. Tom Landry Owen, Gillman, Belichick, Madden, Allen, Holmgren, Ewbank, Cowher, Grant, Parcells, Neale, Conzelman, Shanahan, Seifert, Parker, Reeves, Johnson, Flaherty, and Schottenheimer are also worth mentioning.
To defend winston (not that he needs me to defend him), but Paul Brown was an exceedingly mediocre coach in Cincinnati - a 55-56 record, with three playoff appearances that all ended in loses (all were against good teams, but if the only version of Paul Brown people were talking about was the post-1960 version, no one would think he was anything special).
Brown founded the Bengals. They were an AFL expansion team. Therefore, his record at Cincinnati is skewed. Expansion teams had it rough back then. They struggled for two years. 3-11 in 1968 and 4-9-1 in 1969. Greg Cook had an excellent rookie season in 1969. Nevertheless, the Bengals rebounded from a 1-6 start to win the AFC Central Division in 1970. The Bengals dropped to 4-10 in 1971. They went 8-6 in 1972. They won the AFC Central Division in 1973. They dropped to .500 in 1974. They finished 11-3 in 1975. They lost in the Divisional Playoffs 31-28 in Oakland.
FYI: Brown was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame on August 5, 1967. He was awarded an AFL expansion franchise on September 27, 1967. (Cincinnati was awarded a franchise in May, but Brown's group wasn't awarded with the franchise till September.) I consider his Cincinnati tenure to be good. Not great. Not mediocre. It was good. But, the whole point was I found it odd that winstonbiggs said he saw Lombardi coach but not Brown. Brown coached for six years after Lombardi last coached. Brown coached the Bengals in five games against the Jets. Lombardi never coached against the Jets. (This is also based on a PM from the spring when winstonbiggs wrote to me that he usually watched AFL/AFC games more so than old NFL/NFC games.) Not a big deal. Just a nitpick.
Right. Like I said, nothing that anyone would remotely consider special if his name hadn't been Paul Brown.
Going to the postseason in three years with an expansion team was considered special at the time, especially when you take into account he lost his star QB in training camp. Also, founding a team is special. Your point is essentially correct, however. That said, the defending of winstonbiggs is weird. All winston wrote was that he hadn't seen Brown. I thought what he wrote was pretty black and white and I decided a nitpick was in order. He didn't say he saw Brown when Brown was no longer special. He only said he didn't see Brown. Ugg. Look at what is happening. Too many arguments with nyjunc and I'm becoming junc-ish.
Good point Cakes so let me clarify. I saw Lombardi in 66, 67, 68 and 69. I did see Brown with the Bengals, I simply didn't remeber it and now looking back it was less than memorable. As far as Dungy. Watching todays game I have to say both Herm and Dungy have shown themselves to be among the least prepared HC I can imagine. That said it looks like Herm's team is even more afraid than Payton Manning is and if they move on they might settle down. If either Dungy or Shot get a SB they will get HOF consideration and both of them will still be second rate compared to the top HC who are in the HOF.
Yeah, as far as coaching great, Brown's Cincinnati stint was not highly memorable. "Pretty good" is probably the best way to describe it. The best feather in his cap as far as coaching there goes was taking that 1-6 1970 team and coaching it to 7 straight wins and a division title. You are correct about Dungy and Schottenheimer. If they each win one SB and get inducted, they will be considered on a lower level than guys like Lombardi, Brown, Gibbs, Walsh, et al.
