Um, I see you are replying to me. realize that they have had long periods of frustration. I only know about them because of articles like this. So I'm not exactly surprised that they exist :wink: I wrote what I wrote in reply to what you wrote: So maybe you should have just replied to your own post :wink:
Excuse me, but you really have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, I am not in any way a so-called darksider, and I doubt that I have ever made a "Same Old Jets" post on this board (ask anyone who has been on here for the past few years), so don't act like I'm somehow guilty of the terrible crime Peter King is accusing all Jets fans of. I have given three or four specific reasons why the situation in New York for the Jets is different from that in other places (resulting perhaps in a more vocal response among some), and I've also pointed out that in other places fans have been just as defeatist as Jets fans supposedly are. The point is not that other teams have had as much lack of success as the Jets have, it's that the reaction of their fans in most of those places has been just as negative, if possibly taking on a somewhat different form (there's no difference between a paper bag on your head and a "Same Old Jets" lament). I don't have any trouble with some Jets fans telling others that they wish they would be more positive, but the condescending attitude from Peter King is just more hot air from a massive blowhard. I've also pointed out that the situation pre-internet and pre-talk radio is not even slightly comparable, and your own beloved Packers prove the point. Look at how ridiculously many Packers fans reacted on message boards simply because the team wanted to replace their quarterback - do you seriously think that there wouldn't have been a significant group of Packers fans back in 1990 constantly harping about how the current front office has ruined the legacy of Vince Lombardi? Acting like posts on a message board reflect even slightly the general attitude of fans of a team is absurd.
H'mm while this season has been OK so far they still have not won a 2nd SB which makes this fluffy article very nice to see but makes the NYJs the SOJs until they do. It is also nice to see a reporter declare who he roots for. However, the article is still quite premature since there are 6 games left in the season so anything can happen. IMHO this article should have been printed after the NYJs punched there tix into this year SB by winning the AFC championship.
That was a great read. The article is acurate and Jets fans need to take notice. We need to be positive... This season is shaping up to be a good one. We need to take one game at a time. Notwithstanding the concerns raised by folks on the board, including my own, at the end of the day we won the game. All victories are not pretty or are the demonstrations of complete and utter domniance, but they are still victories. Let's take this momentum to Tenn.
In 1990 the Packers were 6-10. Why are you comparing that to the situation right now where the Jets are 7-3? In 1989 however, the Packers did go 10-6, a rare shaft of sunlight in a very dark cave of two decades (before they followed up with that 6-10 and then a 4-12 season). I remember it well, and no, there were not fans b%tching and whining "why aren't you playing even better?" That was the point of Vacarro's article & this thread, remember? Actually, when Ron Wolf fired Lindy Infante in 1991 to bring in Holmgren, there were a lot of people that were upset about it, believe it or not.
Imo the article was neither all right or all wrong. First of all the comparison to other teams only gets you so far. Fans of some teams that are not that successful first of all are not that plentiful - how many people in LA are fans of the Clippers compared to the Lakers? I have known only one AZ Cards season ticket holder in my whole life. He owned a business in Phoenix and got the tickets to give away as needed to clients, many of whom were fans of the visiting team, especially the Cowboys back when they were in the same division. In short, some of those teams do not have a fanbase anywhere near as involved and rabid as Jet fans. The aspect of playing in the same market as the Giants is also unique. We live here. We know how Giant fans are different. I personally am not a hater of the Giants, but by the same token I know why I am not a Giant fan. Yet there they are. Yeah, they've had frustration, too, but they've also been able to go from mediocre years to SB wins - while the Jets go from mediocre yerars to early playoff exits. Putting aside last week, I think many would agree their best game of the last fifteen or even twenty years, the one we enjoyed the most, was the Monday Night Miracle against the hated fish - but it was only a regular season game. That's fine, but many other fans of other teams have playoff wins to recall fondly. The fact that Giant fans are able to do so is a very in your face kind of situation no Detroit Lions fan ever faces. (Ftr, not that I care all that much what Giant fans think, but I digress...) This being New York, another thing is so much that goes on here can be a combination of media focus and pressure, and high profile attempts to improve the team, only leading to disappointment. The team comes close, but disintegrates at the worst moment, only to have that played all over the sports media. The mediocre seventies lead into Walt Michaels taking the team to the Champ game, where the Jets were cheated, with not a word of comfort from the league. We'll get em next year, though, ended up the beginning of one of the longest and most drawn out downward spirals. First Michaels is gone, then Joe Walton comes in. OMG, how frustrating was that period? Coslet, Browning Nagle, pizza at training camp and your HC making a choking sign just before the team loses the game, ending up in the toilet that was the Kotite years. It took over a decade, but they finally hit bottom. This lead to another upward cycle, the Parcells years, that again ended abruptly when the team couldn't hold the lead the last twenty minutes at Mile High. We'll get em next year, again, right? First quarter of the first game played after the Denver loss, and the Qb was down for the season. There was the fiasco of the announced new HC jumping ship after Kraft meddled with Belichik's contract, only to see him win three SB's once he got Tom Brady, and btw how come the Pats got him when our #1 pick Qb only seemed to get a succession of injuries? The Verminator then comes in and while there was much good clownish theater, the FO and CS let the OL go into the toilet, and before you know it we have the trainwreck of last year. It's a particular history one could not have designed better than to frustrate the fanbase. The fact that it was preceded by Namath and the SB win only leads some to feel the team made a faustian bargain to get that win, and we have been paying for it ever since. BUT, That doesn't mean the win against NE was not a win. It was. It was a great win, too. I saw the whole game. NE was trying as hard as they could to win. Their CS made adjustments, they came back. That was a great catch by Moss. But in the end, the Jets won. Because they played great when they had to. Imo, that's certainly not the type of performance we would label SOJ, now is it? So, it was a great win, but why imo is that article not completely right, either? Because of the obvious - this team has six games to go. No one should feel certain the Jets will proceed from this point to avoid a meaningless early playoff exit, or that a playoff berth is even guaranteed. So imo the way to think and feel right now is this - the win was great, it was at least as good as the Monday Night Miracle, and beating hated NE is always a plus, but the Jets have to take each game one step at a time. Let's see where they end up. In the meantime I intend to avoid mindless skepticism, but also mindless optimism.
It's amazing to me that a person gets criticized for refusing to ignore the obvious history of this franchise and judging them accordingly. Teams like Green Bay, San Francisco, Dallas, Oakland, Pittsburgh, New England, Buffalo (even though they did not win a championship), the Giants and a few others have not only won championships but put together a dynastic type span of seasons. The Jets have had trouble throughout their history having back to back WINNING SEASONS, much less consecutive playoff seasons. Did we forget they were the last team, IIRC, to win a division after the merger? Why is it wrong to expect the team we live and die with and give our money to to become dominant, at least once? Thats why we take a tempered look at the Jet's "successes", because the definition of success for this team has been set lower and lower as the disappointments mount. Just look at the other lockerroom at the Meadowlands - does anyone think the Giants would not absolutely destroy the New England team that the Jet's just beat because of a coin toss? Why do Jet fans have to settle for mediocrity? Why is wrong to expect and demand that we have, just once, a championship team that maybe has a chance to win more than lose? You call us negative, I counter that over optimistic fans have had their expectations lowered so much that soon the Jets just showing up to play will be enough for them. How low do you want to set the bar? So excuse me for not getting excited about a mid season OT win over a skeleton crew Patriots team. Talk to me at the end of the season about how big this win was, or more likely wasn't. Sorry to expect too much from the team I root for.
It's not simply the Giants who make it difficult. It's the entire AFC East, too. I'm 29 years old. In my lifetime, there have thus been 29 Super Bowls. 15 of them featured either the Giants or an AFC East opponent (not even counting former division rival Indy). That's a fate we share only with the Philadelphia Eagles (13 division or in-state appearances, but they have appeared twice in the SB in my lifetime). No one else has had to watch that. In 1998, I had the best team of my life forced to face off against one of the (arguably) top 5 teams of all time in the 98 Broncos. I watched a resurgent, gritty Jets team of the early 2000s face off against a dominant divisional rival AND get forced into a rivalry with a West Coast team featuring ZERO home games out of 7 over a 5 year period, including 2 west coast playoff trips. It's been tough. Having said that, I'm only mentioning all this BECAUSE of this thread. I'm not focused on any of that. I may be in the minority, but when the team is clicking, I allow myself to get excited without qualifying that by thinking that it's bound to end. We have a great thing going right now, and if it ends again, it ends again. All I care about right now is that we're in first place with a chance to make a strong statement in Tennessee this weekend. I'm not focused on reversing or ending the SOJ sentiment. I'm focused on this team and what could happen. If they win it all, it'll be the greatest moment of my sports life by far. I'm not going to ruin that by worrying about the possibility that they fall short.
Probably. I didn't count them all, but off the top of my head, since 1985 there is: Giants: 4 appearances, 3 wins Patriots: 6 appearances, 3 wins Bills: 4 appearances In his lifetime there are also a couple Dolphin appearances, in mine they have 5 appearances and 2 wins.
Yep. Here's the breakdown: Miami - 2 Appearances Buffalo - 4 Appearances New England - 6 Appearances Giants - 4 Appearances It comes out to 16. That's 15 Super Bowls, since both the Pats and Giants were in it last year. To give you an idea, if we count current NFC North foes and your closest AFC team (Indy, I'm guessing?), that's 2 for Chicago and 1 for Indy over the same period. We can even go the old NFC Central and add Tampa's SB for 4 total. I've seen my team truly come close once (I was 3 for the 1983 AFCC), but never reach a Super Bowl, and yet every time they start to play well, I allow myself to think it'll be different this time.
It's tough, although if we had to wait 54 years for the Rangers to do it, we're at what 39 right now? It has to happen at some point. The mere fact that the Jets have only made the playoffs 12 times in their 45 season history (26.67%) has to change at some point. On the brighter side, 5 of those 12 came since 1998.
I agree completely with this post, and it very accurately reflects my feelings as well. I would only add that I believe that the vast majority of the fans feel the same way. The kinds of people who post on message boards or call in to talk radio stations are a very small portion of the fanbase, and are generally more extreme in either direction of positive or negative.
Yeah, good point on that. It's really not the either/or situation some posters here and even the author of the article quoted in the OP paint to be. It's more in the middle.
"Putting aside last week, I think many would agree their best game of the last fifteen or even twenty years, the one we enjoyed the most, was the Monday Night Miracle against the hated fish - but it was only a regular season game. That's fine, but many other fans of other teams have playoff wins to recall fondly. The fact that Giant fans are able to do so is a very in your face kind of situation no Detroit Lions fan ever faces." I just don't agree with this and I'm not sure the majority of Jet fans on this board would either. I consider BOTH the playoff divisional win against the Jaguars in 98 and the 04 wildcard win over the Chargers in San Diego as being bigger, more enjoyable wins than the monday night miracle. (I have to admit that I am a little biased because I was at the 98 divisional playoff game and it was probably my happiest moment ever as a Jet fan) And I'm sorry, I just don't see a valid comparison between Jet fans and Lion fans. Jet fans have had so much more to be hopeful about. (Especially since 1998) Btw, I also considered our win in 98 in Buffalo (to clinch our first AFC east Championship since 1969) to be more enjoyable (and certainly more momentous, consiering that we had virtually never won a big game in Buffalo before that game) than the monday night miracle. "The Verminator then comes in and while there was much good clownish theater, the FO and CS let the OL go into the toilet, and before you know it we have the trainwreck of last year. It's a particular history one could not have designed better than to frustrate the fanbase. The fact that it was preceded by Namath and the SB win only leads some to feel the team made a faustian bargain to get that win, and we have been paying for it ever since." What about the nice season Mangini had in 2006? How many people honestly saw that coming? Maybe I am in the minority but I was very encouraged and satisfied with that season and it gave me plenty of hope for the future. Also, the 2004 team (although very frustrating at times) gave us all a good ride. I guess I just look at this past decade a lot more positively than a lot of Jet fans do. I mean, do you realize we have made the playoffs 5 times since 98?? (And we had three season where we missed it by 1 game) Care to guess how many franchises have matched that accomplishment? I assure you, not too many have. Overall, you make some valid points (Particularly about the Jets having to share the city spotlight with the more successful Giants - Although they too have had some BRUTAL playoff losses - 1997 wildcard loss to Minnesota and 2002 Wildcard loss in SF both come to mind. Those were two of the biggest collapses in postseason history and they occurred within 5 years of each other, with the same coaching staff and same core of high profile players) but I just think that when you say "comparisons to other teams only gets you so far", you are not really putting things into proper perspective. The point of comparing the Jets to all the other teams in the NFL is that it makes the analysis an OBJECTIVE one. The point is, objectively speaking, (biased feelings of Jet-oriented self importance aside) there are a bunch of franchises with a much darker past than that of the New York Jets. I feel like my previous post, along with the posts of several others, clearly illustrates this reality. I'm not sure there is much more to say.
^So basically you're saying "Don't worry if the Jets suck - other teams suck too". Is that the message?
This whole post is brilliant and right on target. But I can't stress enough how devastating the 82 loss in Miami was to the fans and the team. The team was rolling and had great skill position players, but the Orange Bowl, with Shula's assent, was left uncovered during a Florida monsoon. BTW, that scumbag Shula complained to high heaven when the parolee (yep, the Pats were hiring people with felonious tendencies before Belly, go figure) at Foxboro brought the snowplow out to clear a spot for the Pats kicker during a blizzard, but didn't seem concerned when the OB field was uncovered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowplow_Game For the AFC championship, the field was simply a sea of mud: In the case of the missing tarp, it had rained in Miami for several days and throughout the night and morning before the kickoff. At game time, the Orange Bowl resembled a rice paddy. With mud depriving running back Freeman McNeil and wide receiver Wesley Walker of their speed, the Jets lost, 14-0, to the Dolphins, who then lost Super Bowl XVII to the Washington Redskins. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01EEDC1231F930A25752C0A96F958260 More here: To this day, former coach Walt Michaels still believes Don Shula ordered the field to remain uncovered during heavy rains in the days leading up to the '82 title game. The sloppy field neutralized the Jets' superior team speed, and they couldn't muster any offense in the 14-0 loss, a debacle that will be remembered for Richard Todd's five interceptions. "There were some things that went on," Michaels recalled, referring to the alleged shenanigans by Shula. "The league rule is to cover the field, and it wasn't. What else has to be said? "I laugh at it now," he continued. "It's a good thing (Roger) Goodell wasn't the commissioner then or he would've fined Shula." This was Spygate, a quarter-century earlier. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...er_anniversary_of_mud_bowl_jets_v.html?page=1
I think you really did not read my post despite quoting it. I am not sure how you define darker, but I never said the Jets had the worst record in the league. I was instead making two arguments - yes, there are teams with worse records, but they don't generate much fan interest. The Jets do reasonably well since they succeed in getting the hopes of the fans up, only to dash them. The second point was that there is definitely objective evidence of the Jets coming out of long mediocre periods only to fail to go the distance in frustrating fashion, the examples being the Tarp Game and the 98 loss in Denver, followed by two different kinds of excrutiating decline. I don't remember much about the playoff wins in 98 since the loss to Denver was so frustrating, and neither of those games were particularly memorable in and of themselves. The SD win in 04 was a big win but I could not enjoy it all that much since SD basically gave the game away, and their kicker missed some key kicks. Yeah, I took the win just like we all did, but it was hardly all that gratifying, not to mentioned just a week later Chad could not even lead the Jets to more than three points against Pitt - the specific moment I gave up on him. 04 and 06 were of course split by 05, which had much more in common with last year. Which years were for real? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it when the Jets make the playoffs very much, but my point was that the Jets follow periods of mediocrity with false promises and disappointing playoff exits - is that not a recipe for frustration? I certainly think it has been. 04 and 06 had their differences, but disappointing playoff exits applied to both. I also never sought to say the Detroit Lions have much in common with the Jets. I merely referred to them because, as I said, Lions fans never have to leave their house and deal with neighbors rooting for teams having the sort of success the Giants have had.
