By the way, here are some interesting reads on Gardner from the LoHud Blog: Gardner's value Does Gardner need a platoon partner? That first guy actually makes many of the same arguments I was making the other day, but he did a more thorough job of running the numbers.
I am ok with this move because I understand that he is here to be the 4th OF and perhaps defensive replacement only. He is not going to be a full time player at all and at 2 mil, they will have no problem getting rid of him if he doesnt work out. This is the type of move that the Yankees did back in the mid 90's. Lost cost veterans that know how to play the game and understand their role and want that last chance to win that elusive championship. (Chad Curtis, Charlie Hayes, even Tim Raines, etc) You wont see any bitching from Winn about at bats or playing time. I applaud Cashman for not overspending on a marginal player this time. This gives the team plenty of time to evaluate its players and if it doesnt work out by the all-star game then they will find someone else, but I think that Winn will be on team all season. I dont think that they brought in Granderson to be a platoon player. Barring injury, he should play in at least 150 games this year. I understand his issues with hitting lefties but the Yankees will do everything they can to help him overcome this. IMO
Just a few thoughts on the off-season: - Like the Granderson deal. I'm a big Jackson fan as some of you may remember, but I projected him to be, at best, Curtis Granderson. Still, losing a potential All-Star homegrown player stings a little. I hope Granderson works with Long about becoming a better all-around hitter and reducing the strikeouts. He needs to become a #2 hitter. That top 4 last year was as good as it gets. - I'm a huge Nick Johnson fan... but this was a horrible move that made no sense. If you wanted a full-time DH, re-sign Matsui. Johnson can't hit second if that's what the Yankees are thinking, he moves as if he's underwater. Did 2002-2008 teach us nothing about putting together a lineup? - Melky to ATL for Vazquez may be the best trade of the winter, in all of baseball. After the year Melky had last year, it was clear to me he'd take it easy this off-season and slide back next year. And even if you're still angry with Vazquez for 2004 post-AS break (I think his excuse is legitimate), he immediately becomes one of the best #4's in the game today. - I really wish Damon re-signed. For this stadium, for this lineup, for this team, he's as perfect a fit as you'll find. But this one is more on Boras for being greedy. Cashman did let it get personal. I'm fine with Granderson in LF and Gardner in CF. With this lineup, you can afford Gardner's bat in the #9 hole if he'll play strong defense at a premium position. - I like Winn as a spare part. If Melky were 10 years older and had a strong work ethic, he'd be Randy Winn. - Hughes or Joba to the pen? I guess Joba. At this point, I really have no idea how to project either of them. - And the "budget"? I've been advocating the Yankees trying to get more fiscally responsible for years, but once you're back in the $200M neighborhood, don't start pinching pennies over a player as good as Johnny Damon. Those are just some thoughts that come to mind. Hopefully I'll be around here more often soon.
I think Winn is a huge step down from Damon offensively.... Not sure how his defense is but I assume with his age he has about as much range as Damon... I would've paid Damon the money. Poor decision there IMO.
True, but that's only a valid comparison if Winn is expected to be the starting LFer. No, he has better much range than Damon. His defense at the corner OF positions has been well above average for most of his career.
Then let me ask you: Will the defensive upgrade given by the Gardner/Winn platoon be worth the offensive decline of losing Damon? Because IMO the Gardner/Winn platoon will still be less productive at the plate than Damon 2009. Like others have mentioned, when you have a $200 million payroll why the fuck does $3-4 million matter? They should have paid Damon.
Well, I'm not sure a Gardner/Winn platoon is going to be the best comp, either. As for your question, I talked about that a few pages ago. My answer is, "Yes." Link 1 Link 2 I also linked to a couple of stories on Lohud a few posts ago that break down Gardner's value even more:
I wanted the Yankees to bring back Damon too, but you can't blame Cashman for this one at all. He made Damon a very fair offer at the beginning of the offseason, and Boras told him that if Damon wasn't going to get a raise from last season not to bother. Then before he signed Nick Johnson he made another offer, and Boras responded with more of his "mystery team" babble. Then before he signed Winn he offered Damon 1 year at $6 million (which is probably more than he'll get anywhere else) and was turned down again. It's too bad because Damon was the perfect #2 hitter for the Bombers, but the Yankees really did everything reasonable to bring him back.
I want Damon back, but the Yankees are trying to get younger and better defensively so I doubt it, but there is still a chance
Randy Winn is not replacing Damon. If Winn and Gardner put up production close to Melky's, which shouldn't be hard, the outfield will outproduce the 2009 version because Granderson will probably put up better numbers then Damon did. Nick Johnson is the perfect #2 hitter. He may clog up the bases, but between him and Jeter, A-Rod and Teixeira are going to have alot of RBI opportunities.
Holy shit, welcome back man! Where the hell have you been? Good post. I pretty much agree with everything on it at this point (and I didn't for a while.) A lot of the stuff that came out over the past couple days regarding Damon's situation made me change how I view what Cashman did this winter. I still don't like Granderson, Johnson, Gadner replacing Damon, Matsui, Cabrera, but I'll live with it. Damon has reiterated he'd love to come back, and is even willing to be traded mid-year back here. So who knows? I'm calling Hughes gets the 5 spot, and Joba becomes Joba Rules again. It'll probably signal the end of Joba's shot at the rotation, but if he can pitch in the pen like he has in the past, compared to what he did in the rotation, we're better off with "the next Mo." As for Melky for Vasquez, I was just arguing with my brothers yesterday that this move is great. I'm not happy to lose Melky, but Vasquez is going to be the best #4 pitcher in baseball this year. They didn't want to hear it, but I'll wait to give them the "I told you so" in August.
That's why I'm thinking it's Joba that gets the rotation spot, or at least is the strong front runner, all other things being equal. I have a hard time imagining that they went through all that crap the past two seasons to manage Joba's innnigs so he could develop as a starter, only to give up on it the first year that he doesn't have an innings limit... and then slotting in another starter who DOES have an innings limit (Hughes), while permanently losing some serious potential rotation depth (assuming that's the end of Joba as a starter). Besides, if you're hoping Joba pitches like he did in the past (i.e. pre-injury 2008), I can't see why you wouldn't want him starting. I thought it was pretty clear that Joba's disappointing performance was not because of his role. He was ridiculously good as a starter or reliever before the shoulder injury. After the injury, he was inconsistent, period; it didn't matter what his role was, so putting him back in the pen does not get "old Joba" back.
In short situations last post-season Joba looked significantly better than he did while starting. I'm not sure Joba has what it takes to be a MLB starter. Trust me, if you could tell me right now that we need to deal with some growing pains in the near-term, allowing Joba to start in the 5 spot, and growing Hughes' innings limit for an eventual starting role, and that both will be the starters I once believed they would be, then sign me up. I've just seen nothing from Joba to give me confidence that he will have the same stuff as a pro starter that he has in the pen. I have seen Hughes throw a no-hitter though.
But out of the pen last postseason, he was not "the next Mo" or even the dominant Joba from 2007 or early 2008. Even in and within those few outings, he was inconsistent, got hit harder than he used to, and had less command. Was he serviceable? I suppose. But not dominant. The point is that there was something else going on with him... the issue is not that he "doesn't have what it takes to be a starter" or anything like that. We've already seen that he has what it takes. Hold on a second here. You've seen NOTHING from Joba? Come on. That's just not true. We saw a ridiculously dominant Joba before he was injured in 2008. The issue is not that the starter's role diminishes Joba's stuff. In 2008, he was sitting at 95 and hitting 97 in the seventh inning of games he started. We've discussed this before, have we not? Why are you ignoring it? In case we've forgotten, here's his fastball velocity chart for his career: Link In 2008, the spacings become regular when he was a starter. That gap in 2008 is the injury. You can see when he came back (and was in the pen), his velocity was down significantly, even from where he was as a starter. And you can see the difference between where he sat as a starter in 2008 and 2009. Now... if we have to live with diminished velocity from Joba going forward, that's still not the end of any hope for success as a starter. His command just needs to improve. And this would be the case whether he's in the pen or rotation. The question is, which Joba will we see? If he's got his fastball velocity back, there's no way he should pitch out of the pen. And if he doesn't, I still give him a decent chance to develop into a solid starting pitcher. His secondary pitches are still good enough that he could be a successful starter. He just might not be the Verlander that he was looking to be in 2008. (Although imagine if the Tigers put Verlander in the pen after he had a shitty season with diminished velocity at age 25. In fact, I remember people saying he was washed up. Guess not.)
Ugh, here we go with the Cappy semantics arguments again. He could be "the next Mo" if he's groomed as such. I didn't say he was last postseason. He did throw with more velocity and control in the playoffs. He looked much more like the dominant Joba Rules version than the 4-innings and pulled version in the rotation. I'm not giving up on the guy. Fahcryssakes, all I said was that I predict Hughes will win the 5th spot in the rotation and Joba will be back in the pen. And no, I haven't seen anything from Joba that leads me to believe he will have the same stuff as a pro starter that he has in the pen. Coming out of the pen he throws hard and he throws confidently. In the rotation, he constantly looks like he's holding something back. Whether you see that or not is up to you. That's what my eyes see, and therefore, that's what I base that particular opinion on.
If your eyes were telling you that he didn't throw confidently or was holding something back or was anything other than fucking awesome for damn near all of his starts in 2008, then I have to assume that you, sir, are smoking crack. That's not semantics. Yes, last year, he looked uncomfortable for most of the year (including coming out of the pen). So you have one year where he had ridiculously good stuff as a starter, a minor league track record where he also had ridiculously good stuff as a starter, and one year where he was inconsistent with diminished velocity (out of the pen and rotation). I don't see how that translates to "he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter." And I certainly don't see how the comparison of his stuff from starter to reliever is relevant, considering that it's the same trend for every pitcher in baseball. If he can get over the injury and get his fastball velocity back, he should be a starter. Period. If he cannot get over that injury, keeps the diminished fastball, and doesn't improve his command, I have questions about him being effective, even out of the pen.
