MSUJet85 vs. Cakes Date: 7//2006 MSUJet85 vs. Cakes at Metropolitan Stadium Start Time: 1:00 PM EST Game Day Weather Game Weather: Cold and snowy, Temp: 32? F Played Outdoor on Grass: Grass Temp: 32? F, Humidity: 60% Officials Referee: Jeff Triplette (42) Line Judge: Jeff Seeman (45) Field Judge: Duke Carroll (11) Umpire: Jeff Rice (44) Side Judge: Greg Meyer (78) Replay Official: Bob Boylston () Head Linesman: Tony Veteri (36) Back Judge: Gregory Steed (12) Video Operator: David Coleman () Lineups MSU Warriors MSUJet85 1. Joe Montana, QB 20. Joe Greene, DT 21. Marcus Allen, RB 40. Jim Parker, T 41. Marion Motley, RB 60. Willie Lanier, LB 61. Steve Largent, WR 80. Herb Adderley, CB 81. Warren Sapp, DT 100. Don Maynard, WR 101. Mike Ditka, TE 120. Gerry Philbin, DE 121. Rayfield Wright, T 140. Jim Langer, C 141. Junior Seau, LB 160. Cliff Harris, S 161. Robert Brazile, LB 180. Steve Wisniewski, G 181. Chris Doleman, DE 200. Carnell Lake, S 201. LeRoy Butler, S 220. George Musso, G 221. Louis Wright, CB 240. Lou Groza, K 241. Matt Turk, P 10. Jim Thorpe, RB 31. Fran Tarkenton, QB 32. Chad Johnson, WR Cakes Whales Cakes 5. Jerry Rice, WR 16. Dick Butkus, LB 25. Bob Lilly, DT 36. Jack Ham, LB 45. John Hannah, G 56. Buck Buchanan, DT 65. Bobby Bell, LB 76. Roger Staubach, QB 85. Marshall Faulk, RB 96. Rich Jackson, DE 105. Lem Barney, CB 116. Bob Brown, T 125. Larry Little, G 136. Kenny Easley, S 145. Paul Warfield, WR 156. Roger Wehrli, CB 164. Brian Dawkins, S 176. Jackie Smith, TE 185. Charles Haley, DE 196. John Henry Johnson, RB 205. Jan Stenerud, K 216. Reggie Roby, P 225. Winston Hill, T 235. Clyde Turner, C 6. Sonny Jurgensen, QB 14. Hanford Dixon, CB 25. Leroy Kelly, RB 34. Charlie Sanders, TE When MSUJet85 has the ball Code: Marion Marcus Motley Allen RB RB Joe Montana QB Steve Rayfield George Jim Steve Jim Mike Don Largent Wright Musso Langer WisniewskiParker Ditka Maynard WR T G C G T TE WR CB DE DT DT DE CB Lem Charles Buck Bob Tombstone Roger Barney Haley Buchanan Lilly Jackson Wehrli LB LB Bobby LB Jack Bell Dick Ham Butkus FS SS Brian Kenny Dawkins Easley When Cakes has the ball Code: Leroy John Kelly Henry Johnson RB RB Roger Staubach QB Jerry Jackie Bob Larry Bulldog John Winston Paul Rice Smith Brown Little Turner Hannah Hill Warfield WR TE RT RG C LG LT WR CB DE DT DT DE CB Herb Chris Warren Joe Gerry Louis Adderley Doleman Sapp Greene Philbin Wright LB LB Junior LB Robert Seau Willie Brazile Lanier S S LeRoy Cliff Butler Harris Code: MSU Warriors Cakes Whales MSUJet85 Cakes 140 Jim Langer, C 235 Clyde Turner, C 80 Herb Adderley, CB 105 Lem Barney, CB 221 Louis Wright, CB 156 Roger Wehrli, CB 120 Gerry Philbin, DE 96 Rich Jackson, DE 181 Chris Doleman, DE 185 Charles Haley, DE 20 Joe Greene, DT 25 Bob Lilly, DT 81 Warren Sapp, DT 56 Buck Buchanan, DT 180 Steve Wisniewski,G 45 John Hannah, G 220 George Musso, G 125 Larry Little, G 60 Willie Lanier, LB 16 Dick Butkus, LB 141 Junior Seau, LB 36 Jack Ham, LB 161 Robert Brazile, LB 65 Bobby Bell, LB 1 Joe Montana, QB 76 Roger Staubach, QB 21 Marcus Allen, RB 85 Marshall Faulk, RB 41 Marion Motley, RB 196 John Henry Johnson,RB 160 Cliff Harris, S 136 Kenny Easley, S 200 Carnell Lake, S 164 Brian Dawkins, S 40 Jim Parker, T 116 Bob Brown, T 121 Rayfield Wright, T 225 Winston Hill, T 101 Mike Ditka, TE 176 Jackie Smith, TE 61 Steve Largent, WR 5 Jerry Rice, WR 100 Don Maynard, WR 145 Paul Warfield, WR 240 Lou Groza, K 205 Jan Stenerud, K 241 Matt Turk, P 216 Reggie Roby, P 31 Fran Tarkenton,QB 6 Sonny Jurgensen,QB 10 Jim Thorpe, RB 14 Hanford Dixon, CB 32 Chad Johnson, WR 25 Leroy Kelly, RB 201 LeRoy Butler, S 34 Charlie Sanders, TE
memo to voters: There are five games per week. If you vote in this game, please vote in the other four. The four backup players on each team can only be substituted for players at the same position. Therefore, as an example, please do not consider any sort of edge MSUJet85 may have by going to a three-receiver set of Largent, Maynard, and Johnson. Likewise, do not consider any sort of edge Cakes may have by going with the two tight end set with Smith and Sanders. Such formations are not allowed. My advice to voters is to only look at the starters. If after looking at them, you feel the game is very tight and you still don't know who to vote for, then look at the four backups each team drafted and maybe you can use that as a tiebreaker.
Again I feel like this is a more or less even matchup. Both teams have outstanding quarterbacks and offensive lines, both teams have great linebackers. I think that the key in this game is Steve Largent and Don Maynard vs. Barney and Wehrli. It's a relatively even matchup but if MSU could move the ball through the air consistently Cakes would be unable to keep up, because I think that his running game would be handled pretty well by MSU's defense (he has great difference makers on the inside his defensive line in Sapp and Green who IMO could force Faulk to the outside, where there is enough speed to stop him.) I think that MSU's pass offense can move the ball and in a very, very close game they would triumph.
I'll discuss the CB issue for now. Boy, my cornerbacks have really been attacked during this tournament! One's a Hall of Famer and the other almost made it the past couple tries. I don't really agree with the logic here. kinghenry89's basically saying Barney and Wehrli can't hold up against Maynard and Largent. Which could be correct, however, apply that the other way. Can Wright and Adderley hold up against Warfield and Rice? Wouldn't my team be able to move the ball consistently through the air?
My team *(QB) Roger Staubach retired as the NFL's all time highest rated passer. 14 times he led the Cowboys from behind in the final two minutes. *(QB) Sonny Jurgensen was considered the best passer of his time. Johnny Unitas said, "If I threw as much as Jurgensen, my arm would fall off, and if I could throw as well, my head would swell up too big to get into a helmet." (RB) Marshall Faulk was the NFL MVP in 2000 and The Sporting News Player of the Year in 2000 and 2001. He could do everything asked of a running back. He ran the ball with power and he caught numerous balls out of the backfield and in the slot. Faulk was also a fine blocker. He was one of the smartest players to play the game. *(RB) John Henry Johnson rushed for 6,803 yards, the fourth-highest total when he retired. However, he was probably a more impressive blocker. Pro football historian Bob Carroll wrote, "If you're going to rate running backs on their blocking, you can give the crown to John Henry Johnson and go home." *(RB) Leroy Kelly had the impossible job of replacing the legendary Jim Brown. Few young players in history ever had a more ominous assignment and perhaps no player ever responded more magnificently in a similar situation. He was voted All-NFL five times and ran for 7,274 yards, which was fourth highest when he retired. Kelly ran flatfooted, which helped make him perhaps the greatest mudder of all time. He was the leading punt returner in 1965 and lead the AFC in 1971. Head coach Blanton Collier on Brown-Kelly comparisons- "It's impossible to compare them. Jim played at 222 to 228 and was a fullback type of power runner. Leroy is 200 pounds and a halfback type of runner. Leroy did a lot of things Jim was never asked to do. He played on our special teams. He is a fine team man- good tackler, blocker and pass receiver." *(WR) Paul Warfield - "I always felt totally mismatched against Warfield. He was able to come downfield and make his moves at high speeds. His breakaway speed could easily get him past all of our defensive backs, especially me. On top of that, he was willing to make the tough inside post catches, both short and long, and was willing to come over the middle and take a hit. He was the best I played against by far." -Steelers Pro Bowl safety Mike Wagner (WR) Jerry Rice - "Most wide receivers, when they break in or out, they'll drop their shoulders or bend at the waist or bend at the knees. With Jerry, you couldn't tell whether he was going to run fifty yards, or five yards and stop." -cornerback Eric Davis *(TE) Jackie Smith caught 480 passes for 7,918 yards and 40 touchdowns. He was the third TE to be elected to the Hall of Fame. Smith was the Cardinals punter from 1964-66. (TE) Charlie Sanders played in seven Pro Bowls in his 10-year career. His QB Greg Landry said, "Charlie was strong enough to work against anyone in the secondary, even linebackers who had him in coverage, and he was fast enough that strong safeties had problems coping with him in the open field. He was a wonderful target with his size, and an intelligent receiver who knew how to find open spots, or adjust routes to make it easier for me to reach him." Sanders was also a great blocker. "He just crushed the corner when he came off the ball, regardless of whether he was lined up against a defensive lineman or a linebacker. It was like having a third tackle in the game," Landry said. (LT) Winston Hill was an eight-time Pro Bowler and once started 176 consecutive games. *(LG) John Hannah was the premier guard of his era. *(C) Clyde (Bulldog) Turner was named as the all-pro center six times. He also played linebacker. Turner was versatile enough that he could have played as an offensive back had he not been such a superb center and linebacker. Led the NFL in interceptions with 8 in 1942. *(RG) Larry Little was named to the 1970s all-decade team. He was the most frightening lineman of the Dolphins vaunted rushing attack. Also a superb pass blocker, he was named the NFL Players Association's AFC lineman of the year in 1970, 1971, and 1972. *(RT) Bob (Boomer) Brown once got in a three-point stance and put a forearm smash on a goalpost, knocking it down. In L.A. he warned Deacon Jones to stop head-slapping him in practice. Finally, Brown removed a screw on the side of his helmet and replaced it with a longer screw that had been sharpened like an ice pick. Jones slapped Brown's helmet and got his hand stuck. Jones has a scar in the middle of his left hand to this day. "I'm about as subtle as a sixteen-pound sledgehammer," Brown said of his style of aggressive blocking. (DE) Rich (Tombstone) Jackson was the premier pass rush in football for several years before a knee injury cut his career short. He was named first team All-AFL in 1968 and first team All-NFL in 1970. Steve Sabol and Paul Zimmerman list Jackson as the best player not in the Hall of Fame. *(DT) Bob Lilly played in 11 Pro Bowls and 196 consecutive games. He was the foundation of the great Dallas defense. *(DT) Buck Buchanan batted down 16 passes in 1967. The 6'7" intimidator had the speed to run sideline to sideline to make tackles. "The finest linemen I have seen," said Grambling head coach Eddie Robinson. (DE) Charles Haley played the elephant position in which he lined up as an end on rushing downs and charged in from a standing position on passing downs. "Charles is one of the greatest players of our era," Bill Walsh said. "At one point, he was considered the best pass rusher in all of football." Haley retired tied for 17th all-time in career sacks. He won Super Bowl titles with the 49ers in 1988 and '89 and with the Cowboys in 1992, '93 and '95. *(OLB) Bobby Bell became the first Chiefs player to be enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame when he was chosen in the Class of 1983 . . .Superb athlete began his pro career as a defensive end, because the Chiefs needed help at that position when he was drafted in the seventh round in 1963 . . . In his third season he was moved to linebacker, where he earned a spot in the AFL All-Star game and then the Pro Bowl the next nine years . . . Was named to the AFLs all-time team by the Pro Football Hall of Fame . . . Starred on two AFL Championship teams, playing in Super Bowls I and IV . . . Intercepted 26 passes, recovered 15 fumbles and scored nine touchdowns in 168 career games . . . Also handled deep snapping on punts and placekicks. *(MLB) Dick Butkus - "If I had a choice, I'd sooner go one-on-one with a grizzly bear." -running back MacArthur Lane *(OLB) Jack Ham was one of the top three outside linebackers of all time, along with Lawrence Taylor and Bobby Bell. Ham covered the field from sideline to sideline and was quick to sniff out running plays. He recorded 32 interceptions and 21 fumble recoveries. Chuck Noll said, "He was a dominant player who basically had no weaknesses." *(LCB) Lem Barney was one of history's premier cornerbacks. The flamboyant speedster also excelled as a punt and kickoff return specialist and made it impossible for opposing defenses ever to relax when he was on the field. He was the Lions punter in 1967 and 1969. (FS) Brian Dawkins is one of the best safeties in the game today. He is an intense, emotional team leader and a heavy hitter. (SS) Kenny Easley was the 1984 Defensive Player of the Year. He made the Pro Bowl five times in his seven seasons and was first team All-NFL three times. He intercepted 32 passes for 538 yards in 89 career games. (RCB) Roger Wehrli was a seven-time Pro Bowl selection. Played on the same side of the field as free safety Larry Wilson, who frequently blitzed. This created more coverage responsibility for Wehrli. Don Coryell, his head coach in St. Louis, had this to say, "I have never seen anyone with more determination to succeed." (RCB) Hanford Dixon was the "Top Dawg" of the vaunted Browns secondary of the 1980s. Dixon was first team All-NFL twice. Barked at wide receivers. *(K) Jan Stenerud was the first pure kicker to enter the Hall of Fame. Early in his career he didn't have the advantage of artificial turf, domed stadiums or even warm-up nets on the sidelines. The offensive concept of maneuvering into field goal position in close games was just emerging. (P) Reggie Roby was a three-time Pro Bowler and had a career punting average of 43.3 yards. He wore a wristwatch during play. *Hall of Famer
I would like to point out that in 32 degree weather with snow, neither team would be able to move the ball in the air effectively. The cold air and snow would also cut down on Faulk and Allen, making them not as effective with their speed gone. This would mean that the most logical way for both teams to move the ball would be short passes and running with the fullback. I don't think that anyone would argue that Motley is better then Johnson, giving MSU the edge there. The offensive lines are pretty much a push. This leaves it to the defensive lines, especially the DTs, where I give a slight edge to Cakes. But, the X-Factor is Joe Montana and having him on your team is like having Babe Ruth in the baseball draft - he is so much better then anyone else at his position. If you bring the 2 QBs into play, Montana with Maynard and Largent would be able to move the ball better then Staubach with Warfield and Rice. Yes, Rice and Warfield is a better duo then MSU's, but the greatest QB - the most important position in the game - makes all the difference. Very close matchup IMO, which I'll give to MSU because as long as he's within a touchdown going into the fourth quarter Joe Montana would be able to get it done.
To me, the most important thing about any play is the blocking. If you don't block properly, the play can't possibly work. I feel I have put together one of, if not the best, team of blockers in the tournament. Warfield and Rice were great blockers at the WR positions. Some historians consider Johnson to be the greatest blocking back of all-time. Faulk was/is a damn good blocker. He was/is great at picking up the blitz. And my line consists of four Hall of Famers and has two exceptional pulling guards.
WHOA! It's snowing. I gotta change that starting lineup. To the bench Faulk. To the starting lineup- one of the ultimate bad weather backs. In comes Leroy Kelly. I'll note Murrell of the change.
I have a problem with this. If Montana is such an X-Factor, why does MSUJet85 have 1 win and 3 losses? (Actually, in my book MSUJet85 would be 2-2. I felt he got jipped out of a win two weeks ago.) Like I wrote elsewhere, maybe MSUJet85 legitimately has the better team. But this is odd, you gotta admit: Votes for MSUJet85 the past three weeks: Week 3- received six of 17 total votes against a 1-1 team Week 4- received five of 12 total votes against a 1-1-1 team Week 5- has received five of six total votes against a 4-0 team in a matter of 10 hours
^I have no influence on the other's votes. If you want to hear the truth, I have voted for MSU every week so far except the one in which he faced me because I personally think he has a top 2 team in this tournament. I can't determine how the other voters vote... ask them.
Perhaps because people think MSU has a better matchup against your team. Everytime you don't get a vote, Cakes, you argue it. And I'm sure I'm not the only one noticing it. I'm not trying to cause a problem, but everytime someone says something against your team or negative you have to defend it. Which we weren't supposed to be doing. You may think that you have constructed the team of all teams, but other people may not. Stop complaining, it's alright if you don't go 16-0 with a 49-2 Championship victory. I voted for MSU because I like his backfield vs. your defense more than I like your backfield vs. his defense. I think his defensive line would have a field day because he has three players who are extremely quick off the line.
Where are these rules you speak of? 7-2? Yeah, I understand the situation may be his team may possibly match up better than mine. I made a post with such an idea in it in Week 1. Check the 1028 vs. J_V thread. I thought your team matched up better than the 1028 team even though I felt 1028 would ultimately go farther in the tournament. I have argued two votes with very vague explanations (one did not involve my team). EDIT: That sentence is awkward. I argued two votes where the voters provide vague explanations. The way I wrote it, it sounds like I argued two votes and I provided vague counter-arguments. I then argued a vote against my team in a Week 2 matchup which proved to be a bogus vote because someone had an axe to grind with me. I then argued kinghenry's process of voting, but not his actual vote. He just didn't know the rules about the backup players and one of his chief arguments against my team dealt with the use of 3-WR sets, which is unallowed. Check my Week 3 game thread for how that went down. Then today, I'm arguing what is up here. Can I get people to admit they see the logic of my posts in the Draft Analysis thread?
This idea that I'm some sort of ass, is out of line. Check my post history. Do you see rampant asshole tendencies? C'mon, cut me some slack here.
I will quote this again and discuss this again. Re-read post 13, I believe it is, where I noted what votes I had a problem with. Prior to tonight I had 37 votes cast against me. I argued 2. You can say 3 if you want to include the fact I had a problem with the way kinghenry89 came to his conclusion. We are supposed to debate. If someone says something bad about my team I am well within reason to combat it. The only things I cannot do are openly campaign for votes and disparage my opponent by saying his team sucks and blows and stuff like that.
Facts: My Week 1-4 opponents have a combined record of 7-8-1. They are 0-4 against me. Therefore, they are 7-4-1 when not playing my team. MSUJet85's Week 1-4 opponents have a combined record of 7-8-1. They are 3-1 against him. Therefore, they are 4-7-1 when not playing his team. I have faced stronger competition thus far. You guys know that I don't usually cast votes right away. It takes time to think about these games. So with all this info and taking into account the standings and everything else, how in a matter of hours after the opening of the polls did we get BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM, MSUJet85 is up 4-0? Again, can you understand my point of view with this whole thing? EDIT: 7 people found for MSUJet85 this quick? 5 votes all of last week. 6 votes all of Week 3. Seven votes in roughly 12 hours against a division leader this week. Odd. Heck, MSUJet85 hasn't even posted a team bio or his thoughts on the matchup yet.
^Fair. I disagree with some of it (Marcus Allen was good, but not great), but at least it's a fair post. MSUJet has one HOFer on his defensive line and he's going up against four Hall of Famers on my offensive line, but so be it. (I also believe you fellows, in general, have been overrating Warren Sapp, but you're entitled to do so. We'll agree to disagree on that player, I guess. I don't think Sapp is a future HOFer.) From the Week 1 DonnieIsTheKing vs MSUJet85 game thread: Okay, in Week 1 a major factor in your vote was Donnie's WRs (Hirsch and Brown) going up against MSU's secondary. Okay. Well, if Hirsch and Brown can do a number on them, sheesh, what would Rice and Warfield do? By any measure, the tandem of Warfield and Rice is significantly better than the tandem of Hirsch and Brown. For what's it worth, you also mentioned Jim Taylor. Now, John Henry Johnson was also a big time runner with the ball in addition to being one of, if not the, best lead blocker at the running back position. Do I think Johnson was better than Taylor? As a runner- no. As a blocker- yes. Overall- I'd lean towards Taylor, but it is close. Therefore, if you're going to give Donnie a pat for Taylor, you'd have to give me one for Johnson. There is a consistency problem here. ****** This Xs and Os stuff is very tough to do. Some of you guys are getting really speculative with it. Unless you have an actual matchup that occurred in reality (see Murrell-Cakes Week 1 matchup of Bob Brown vs Deacon Jones), it is difficult to say this would happen and that would happen and this would happen and that would happen. I had a former boss who was a USNA graduate (and who saw Staubach play in person numerous times and claims he was the best ever at QB- and I'll be addressing Donnie's huge endorsement of Montana later today). He was in the practice of applying the KISS principle: KISS- Keep It Simple, Stupid I can do the Xs and Os battles and I think I can do a good job with it. I'll have some Xs and Os stuff posted in this thread sometime this week. However, as I have said all along, I believe the position-by-position matchups are in my opinion, the best way to go about determining which team is better and it is also a much simpler way to go about the whole process. QB vs QB, RB vs RB, blocking back vs blocking back ('cause I hate the fullback term; it is a misnomer), X WR vs X WR, Z WR vs Z WR, TE vs TE, etc., all the way down the line. If Team A has the better player at 18 spots and Team B has the better player at 6 spots (11 offense, 11 defense, 2 kick specialists for the total of 24 positional matchups), then I think you need to cast your vote for Team A. If you start getting into this LB vs C, WR vs CB, TE vs SS stuff, sometimes it's okay, but often times it can be nothing but pure speculation. And then if you have a guy out of position. Boy, now that is tough.
I'm aloud to change my mind. It's not very odd, that more votes occurred in a quicker time frame since it's the first thread on the page. Not everything's a conspiracy against you. It's not completely out of range to think that MSU has a better matchup this week against you. But somehow you'll manage to take everyones opinion and shred it apart until they are forced to vote for you, thus making you 15-1 and the league champion.
I guess you are "aloud" to change your mind when it's convenient to make a case for your actions. This was not the first thread on the page when the first 4 votes came in. I'd still love to hear why this game had SO MANY votes SO QUICK in comparison to how slow votes came in on all other games the past few weeks.
