Seems like a good topic to debate now. It says a lot about the achievement to see how many truly all-time great pitchers never reached it. My top 10 (feel free to disagree): 1. Bob Feller 2. Sandy Koufax 3. Pedro Martinez 4. Ferguson Jenkins 5. Randy Johnson (seems safe to say he isn't making it) 6. Juan Marichal 7. Whitey Ford 8. John Smoltz 9. Robin Roberts 10. Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown I probably could have included a couple more pitchers from ancient times, but I'm too ignorant of them to be able to rate them. If relievers were included, Mariano Rivera would probably crack the top 10 of all time best pitchers not to win 300. I debated whether or not to include Eckersley.
Feller would have probably recorded 90 or so additional wins if he didn't miss almost four full seasons in the prime of his career due to military service. He would have had about 350 wins.
Koufax wasn't even close to 200. It took him 12 years to get 165. Sometimes I wonder if he isn't the most over rated athlete of all time. He was great for 3 of those 12 years but I put him in the Jim Brown category of getting out while it was safe. The others all played a full career.
The thing about Koufax is, for 6 years he was, quite simply, the best pitcher to ever play the game. The first 6 years of his career, he was dreadful. But if his career didn't end early, his career numbers would probably be among the other all-time greats, despite the 6 lean years. If not for the war, Bob Feller is probably regarded universally as the best pitcher ever.
The only two pitchers to perform even close to the level Koufax did from 1962-1966 (that's 5 years, not 3) in the history of major league baseball were Lefty Grove and Pedro Martinez (and his 1961 was damn good also). To argue that "he got out when it was safe" when he only retired because of an arthritic elbow that was at the time completely untreatable is absurdly laughable. Koufax's overall career was not all that noteworthy, since he spent half of it as a mediocre pitcher. For the other half he was easily one of the very best pitchers in the history of baseball. I will let others decide how they rate that overall, but anyone who would dispute that assessment is simply clueless.
How can you consider him, even for those 5 years (it was 5, not 6), to be the best pitcher to ever play the game? Sure he was good but doesn't Pedro have a lower era then he did and over a much longer time too? I know he was great in 3 of those years but I can't consider him in the same league with the others on that list because he didn't do it long enough. Actually, I didn't know about his elbow. I thought he just retired. I was never much of a Dodger fan.
You make a good point. On my list I had Koufax two and Pedro 3; if you thought it was the opposite you wouldn't necessarily be wrong.
I would put Pedro at the top, as I feel he is the best pitcher of all time, but I have only one other problem with your list. Randy Johnson WILL win 300 games. He only needs 16 more, and if it means pulling a Clemens and playing half a season for two or three more years he'll do it. I'd be very shocked if he didn't hang around as long as it took to get them.
Somewhere very near the top you Missed Bob Gibson , but I agree with most of the list , if not the order. Id put Feller as 1 but than Gibson 2 and Marichal 3
For some reason I just don't see that. Randy Johnson doesn't strike me as a guy that'll be willing to stick around, ineffective, just to reach a milestone. If he does win 300 games, he's deserving. If not, it still doesn't detract from the fact that he's perhaps the most intimidating pitcher ever and one of the best lefthanders in baseball history.
Maybe because he has made only 375 career starts? Why doesn't Prince Fielder have 500 home runs yet? They say there are no dumb questions, but that my friend, is a dumb question.
I remember Tommy John hanging on trying to get there. Kinda sad. I remember when Dallas Green cut him he said something like, "oh sure, he can still pitch until hes 50, he just can't get anyone out."
Feller and Pedro are neck and neck for #1. I go Koufax right after them, then Randy. followed by Gibson to round out the top 5.
Heh, I was just about to say something along those lines. Steve Trachsel would've qualified as the Mets' best pitcher last year going by those standards. -_-
Carl Hubbell and Bob Gibson definitely belong on that list. A guy who had a brilliant career even more shortened by injury than Koufax's was Dizzy Dean. -X-
I'm going to say one of my Fav Yankees. Louisiana Lightning #49 Ron Guidry. There were years where He was a Dominant pitcher and the man was just Unhittable. Maybe it's because I've seen him pitch and not some of the ones on the list but if he had a longer career he'd be up there with the best.
