Dice-K attributes arm troubles to Sox training regimen

Discussion in 'Baseball Forum' started by JetsNation06, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. JetsNation06

    JetsNation06 Well-Known Member

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    Thought this was a pretty interesting read...

    By Alex Speier/Weei

    Though he is now in his third year in the United States, it is increasingly clear that Daisuke Matsuzaka and the Red Sox still are dealing with their differences as they approach the issue of how to keep the pitcher both healthy and effective. That much became apparent in an article that appeared in Japan on Monday.

    In the story, Matsuzaka suggested that his effectiveness and health are being negatively impacted by the training techniques of the team. He blamed his current predicament on an inability by the club to account for the needs of Japanese pitchers, and suggested that he was ready to take a stand in an effort to return to the practices that he followed before coming to Major League Baseball.

    Matsuzaka is currently in Fort Myers while on the 15-day disabled list with what is described as a mild right shoulder strain. It is his second D.L. stint of the year due to shoulder weakness.

    While pitching in the majors, he was tattooed by opposing hitters, going 1-5 with an 8.43 ERA and allowing opponents to hit .378. Those numbers stood in stark contrast to his first two big-league seasons, when Matsuzaka went 33-15 with a 3.72 ERA and held opponents to an American League-low .230 average.

    The Red Sox consistently have cited the World Baseball Classic as the chief culprit for the pitcher?s struggles and subsequent time on the sidelines. Matsuzaka, however, blames his season on the throwing program and training techniques that the Sox outlined for him once he came to the U.S.

    ?If I?m forced to continue to train in this environment, I may no longer be able to pitch like I did in Japan,? Matsuzaka is quoted as saying in the article, which was written by Taeko Yoshii. ?The only reason why I managed to win games during the first and second years (in the U.S.) was because I used the savings of the shoulder I built up in Japan. Since I came to the Major Leagues, I couldn't train in my own way, so now I've lost all those savings.?

    According to the story (to which WEEI.com was referred by Harvard Professor Andrew Gordon), Matsuzaka still laments the fact that the Sox do not permit him to practice nagekomi, or marathon throwing sessions. The pitcher believes that such between-starts work increases arm strength and the touch for breaking pitches. The article suggests that Matsuzaka exhausted his shoulder in the WBC because the Sox would not permit him to practice nagekomi in his build-up to the tournament.

    In the story, Matsuzaka articulates his belief that people of different ethnic, racial, and/or national origin have physiological traits that require distinct training programs. When he followed the same routines as his American-born teammates ? which included more weight work than in Japan, but less throwing ? the right-hander concluded that he was not realizing the same results. (It is worth noting that such perspectives about physiological difference and nationality, race and ethnicity, which are often treated as taboo in the U.S. due to their overtones of eugenics, are more common in Japan.)

    In conversations between the pitcher and the club, Matsuzaka?s theories have been treated with skepticism and perhaps even discomfort. Indeed, the article suggests as much.

    ?Recently, when he mentioned physical difference between races, team officials were simply baffled,? the article said, in a passage that appears to represent Matsuzaka?s recollection of a conversation. ?One of them responded to him in a cracked voice, ?If I ever recognized such a thing, I would be severely bashed by the media as a racist.??

    The Sox, meanwhile, believe that the shoulder and training programs that they?ve developed lend themselves to success and health for their pitchers, regardless of nationality or heritage. The team points to the examples of Josh Beckett, Jon Lester and Jonathan Papelbon, among others, in citing their effectiveness.

    More recently, Brad Penny has become a huge advocate of the team?s shoulder program. Penny insists that without it, he would have had to undergo shoulder surgery.

    The Sox do not share Matsuzaka's belief that the WBC was blameless for his lack of shoulder strength this year. The team believes that the diminished quality of his stuff during the regular season was a direct result of inadequate strengthening and conditioning leading into the WBC.

    Following his MVP performance (3-0, 2.45 ERA) in the tournament, Matsuzaka was not considered to be in shape when he arrived at spring training. He was both heavier and had a lower percentage of lean muscle mass than was the case last year.

    Between the conditioning issues and the inadequate amount of time to build arm strength prior to the start of the WBC, the pitcher may have taxed his shoulder excessively before he was adequately prepared to do so. It is for that reason that the team wanted him to go to Fort Myers to focus not just on shoulder strengthening but on an overall conditioning program
     
  2. MBGreen

    MBGreen Banned

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    Hair Pie?..................sank you.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. dubagedi

    dubagedi New Member

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    He came into camp fat and out of shape, which puts a hell of a lot more stress on his shoulder than a normal shoulder strengthening regime. It sounds like he never gave the program a chance.
     
  4. devilonthetownhallroof

    devilonthetownhallroof 2007 TGG Fantasy Baseball League Champion

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    This thread title is pretty misleading. He's not saying the Sox program caused him "arm trouble", he's saying the change in programs caused a decline in performance. At this point they should just let him do whatever he wants to train and see what happens.
     
  5. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    But... but... how can this be?! The Red Sox have a shoulder strengthening specialist!
     
  6. talisaynon

    talisaynon Well-Known Member

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    Seppukku. It's the only answer.
     
  7. Tballlz63

    Tballlz63 Active Member

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    i hear bukkake strengthens the shoulder too...
     
  8. devilonthetownhallroof

    devilonthetownhallroof 2007 TGG Fantasy Baseball League Champion

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    Which has been credited by at least two guys (Penny and Smoltz) as major reasons they signed with them and raved about by every single pitcher on the team except the one guy who isn't following it and has experienced any shoulder related issues since they implemented it.

    I knew one of your snide remarks was coming, which is why I pointed out that the thread title was misleading. I'm not sure what your obsession is with the shoulder program the Sox have not being of value, but I've heard a lot more from people who know a fuck of a lot more about it than you saying otherwise.
     
  9. JetsNation06

    JetsNation06 Well-Known Member

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    It's not misleading at all. He's saying the change in training programs has affected his shoulder savings which constitutes "arm trouble" and thus, has resulted in a decline in performance.

    Here's the quote directly from Dice-K...

    ?If I?m forced to continue to train in this environment, I may no longer be able to pitch like I did in Japan,? Matsuzaka is quoted as saying in the article, which was written by Taeko Yoshii. ?The only reason why I managed to win games during the first and second years (in the U.S.) was because I used the savings of the shoulder I built up in Japan. Since I came to the Major Leagues, I couldn't train in my own way, so now I've lost all those savings.?
     
  10. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    :lol:

    You're such a peach.

    Seriously, are you capable of having any fun with the rivalry at all? Or are you still on your "Gotcha!" kick?
     
  11. devilonthetownhallroof

    devilonthetownhallroof 2007 TGG Fantasy Baseball League Champion

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    Seeing as there is no such thing as "shoulder savings" it does not constitute "arm trouble". He didn't follow the Sox program over the offseason (by both his own admission and from what John Farrell said on the radio today) and came into camp out of shape. "Arm trouble" indicates injury, not overall lack of stamina and conditioning.
     
  12. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and for the record, I never said the shoulder program has no value. I just get a kick out of how it's touted by Sox fans as though they have access to some magical biomechanical book of knowledge that creates a magical shield of invincibility, while the other major league teams are using leeches, hexes, and incantations to protect their athletes.
     
  13. devilonthetownhallroof

    devilonthetownhallroof 2007 TGG Fantasy Baseball League Champion

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    I just don't find you remotely funny I guess. If your posts poking rivalry related fun were more than snide remarks about how things that are pretty universally regarded as strengths of the team are really not that great maybe it would come across better. Say something about the lineup, or Smoltz, or the shortstop situation. That would make sense. But you go off on things like the preseason depth at starting pitcher, or the shoulder program, or saying matter of factly that Bard "isn't that great". You know, things that 99.999% of the baseball world agrees are strengths. It comes off as sour grapes rather than poking fun. Maybe it's how I read your posts or something, but it comes off as "Mr. Knowitall Dickhead says that everyone else is wrong about these things, they're actually weaknesses".
     
  14. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tips. I'll be sure to keep that in mind if I ever start to give a shit what you think of me.

    ETA: Oh, and by the way, it's definitely how you read my posts that's the issue. No doubt about it.
     
    #14 Cappy, Jul 28, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2009
  15. JetsNation06

    JetsNation06 Well-Known Member

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    The words came out of Dice-K's mouth so how could you say there is no such thing? Are you saying that Dice-K was incorrect in stating that his shoulder savings have been affected? Who made you the authority on baseball terminology? If he calls it something different than you it doesn't make it any less of an "arm trouble" or arm problem. His lack of shoulder stamina would still qualify as "arm trouble". Talk about petty.
     
  16. talisaynon

    talisaynon Well-Known Member

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    What? Cappy points out the obvious dicksucking that the media does over RSN and he's attacking points that are general misconceptions about your franchise. He doesn't have to mention those things about your shitty lineup, Smoltz or shortstop cause those ARE the universal truths.

    Your "pre-season pitching depth" is laughable. Counting on Brad Penny, Clay Buccholz, John Smoltz is not incontrivertible proof that Boston's pitching depth is amazing. That's asinine. Wait, I forgot to mention Tazawa and OMG KELLY WHO PLAYS SHORTSTOP OMG!!!11. Holy shit. Congratulations. You have a fucking farm system.

    PLATELETTE INJECTIONS!!!111 is not anything special. All teams have access to a medical staff, this is not something mutually exlusive to the Sox.

    Oh and Daniel Bard is pretty good.

    So no, Cappy's not alone having these sentiments about the Sox. Look outside of ESPN, Boston and other Mainstream media and see the truth. It's hilarious when I hear words like "enviable" or "embarassment of riches" thrown around when describing the Sox pitching depth.

    Newsflash: Buccholz can't even land you Victor Martinez. Think about that for a sec.
     
  17. Jake

    Jake Well-Known Member

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    The training regimen hasn't been as effective since Damon stopped drinking beer and chasing cars with them. They need to go back to what works.
     
  18. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Now that's funny. :grin:
     
  19. nyjcanada

    nyjcanada Active Member

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    that's tough to say that when the owner has spent 102 mill on the guy.
     
  20. nyjcanada

    nyjcanada Active Member

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    do you realize what it takes to land trades first of all? buchholz for v-mart straight up was not going to happen, and it wouldn't happen if it was hughes for v-mart either. think about that for a sec.

    name me three catchers in the AL who have been better than martinez. an elite player at a PREMIUM position is expensive.
     

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