Bottom Line for the DT trades.

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by JCotchrocket, Mar 3, 2008.

  1. JCotchrocket

    JCotchrocket Active Member

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    To gain Kris Jenkins, we lost our third and fifth round draft picks. But by trading DeWayne Robertson to the Bengals, we got back a fifth and gained a fourth. Cincy picks pretty damn close to us in the draft.

    So essentially, we upgraded from out-of-place Robertson to pro bowler Jenkins by swapping our third for a fourth.

    Yikes! That's how you manage, folks! Which was the better trade, the 2008 DT Carousel or the Thomas Jones Second Round Swap?
     
  2. Gotham Green

    Gotham Green Active Member

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    I'm glad we got something for Robertson. I'm just kind of sad that we lost a guy who was that high a pick for so little in return. I have no idea about Jenkins, I didn't watch many Carolina games last year.
     
  3. Beamen

    Beamen New Member

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    I look at it this way (which isn't quite as sunshiny, I'll admit)

    We used 2 first round picks on Robertson, and a first round pick on Vilma...

    A rookie HC came in, forced his scheme on the team, and couldn't make it work with either of these guys, and, after two seasons, trades them away... We get back, at the most, a 3rd, two 4ths, and a 5th over two years....

    Good teams draft well, and design their schemes so that their best players are on the field as often as possible, in as productive a role as possible... Bad teams may draft good players, but end up losing them because of frugality or because they can't make them work with their scheme... We fall into the latter category....

    Now, I'm not going to say I disagree with these trades right now, because with Mangini's scheme already going into its 3rd year, and the fact that our coaches were incapable of figuring out a way to make two of our better defensive players work in this scheme being evident, we really didn't have another choice.

    But I'm not going to sit here and praise trading away two very good players picked in the 1st half of the 1st round for a handful of 2nd day picks.....
     
  4. ATL-JET

    ATL-JET Active Member

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    I agree, but the only way to fit the scheme to work with these 2 player would have been to switch to a 43 D which I believe Mangini is extremely reluctant to switch to because either he does not know how to coach it, or because the 34 allows so much more flexibility that, he just doesn't want to.

    I don't know but I know those two will flourish in their new locations and getting Kris Jenkins and Possibly C. Pace and Vernon Gholston is intriguing.

    Let's see how it works out.
     
  5. e-x

    e-x New Member

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    it makes me sick to my stomach when i think about the high draft picks we've wasted
     
  6. Beamen

    Beamen New Member

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    Oh, don't get me wrong, at this point, we really didn't have any other choice.... But my problem is that when this CS came in, instead of looking at the personnel we had (Ellis, Abraham, Vilma, Robertson and others) and designing a scheme to take advantage of these players, they tried to fit square pegs into round holes, and ended having to replace three very, very good players....


    If you look at it this way with Vilma and Robertson, we spent 3 1st round picks on the 2 of them. We had two seasons of struggle because they were in a scheme that did not cater to their strengths (yes, we went 10-6 in '06, but we were not particularly strong on D), then we traded up in the 2nd round of the 2007 draft to draft a replacement for Vilma, and traded a 3rd and 4th round pick for a replacement for Robertson.

    So instead of using all that time, energy and draft picks on improving the rest of the team, and building around these two strong points, we neutralized them with the scheme, and are just now, hopefully, at the point where the production out of those two positions will be similar to how it was in 2004....


    I don't know, it really irks me to see that now, in the spring of '08 we are essentially in the same position we were in the spring of '05 when it comes to the DT and I/MLB positions....

    That's a lot of effort for very little change....
     
  7. stinkyB

    stinkyB 2009 Best Avatar Award Winner

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    While I agree with your point (square pegs/round hole stubbornness), it's a bit exaggerated because DRob was NOT worth trading those 2 1st rd picks for...... not even close, so........
     
    #7 stinkyB, Mar 3, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2008
  8. Mickey Shuler 82

    Mickey Shuler 82 New Member

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    I think that the only counter argument is that the 4-3 with those guys hadn't really produced a top-caliber defense, so sticking with the talent because the talent was in place and it was easier to stay the course isn't necessarily a better idea than scrapping it and starting over.

    But to your point, I agree that scrapping and starting over has its costs, which we are fully paying now.
     
  9. I agree that we shouldve stuck w/ the 4-3. D rob will flourish in Cincy...Vilma? I'm not so sure w/ his knee issue.

    Just keep in mind that all coaches come in, and pretty much force their scheme on the franchise regardless of personell.

    It's a league wide problem.
     
  10. KRhodesMVP

    KRhodesMVP Banned

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    I could understnd the frustration if Robertson had thrived as a DT in a 4-3 in the seasons prior to Tannenbaum's arrival. However, He never came close to looking like an impact player in that scheme. And he obviously was a non factor in the 3-4 the past two years. So we trade this guy, who may not be an above average player in either scheme, and may actually prove to be a "bust", for a 4th and 5th rounder. I dont see the problem. Especially considering Tannenbaum had nothing to do with his being here. And especially considering the fact that were gonna get 9 million in cap relief.
     
  11. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    I'll sign on to this with the caveat that Vilma really was damaged goods. I don't like the trade we made with New Orleans but I think it might realistically have been the best trade out there.

    I believe that most of the potential in Mangini's tenure with the Jets was blown to poor talent decisions early on. Vilma would have fetched a 1st in 2006 and D-Rob a 2nd at least and neither of those guys was suited to Mangini's 3-4. Professional coaches figure that out and get the value while they can instead of watching us struggle on defense for two seasons.
     
  12. Jet Blue

    Jet Blue New Member

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    Disagree....

    For starters, you can't look at what the last regime paid - I cried about the DRob deal from day 1 so spare me. Not much could have made that deal look good in the end and I certainly can't pin that on Mangini.

    This was not the Chicago Bears 85' defense that this staff came in and "Forced a defense on"... This was a defense that needed an overhaul and needed players regardless, Some people here go on the premise that a 4-3 defense here was a lock to be a great defense - Meanwhile, I saw a defense that STILL needed a big body next to Drob and still needed CB's and talent all over. The decision on what defense to install wasn't as easy as people pretend, and if it's close at all, you go with the defense you actually know...

    Now add that Both Robertson and Vilma are injury risks - I also think both are/were overrated - I don't think Vilma is a guy you look at and say "Hey I'm going to be Locked into A 4-3 defense becasue of Vilma".. And I don't think Robertson with his knee condition helps any...

    I think it would have been a tough choice on both of these guys when it comes time to redo their deals and that goes for 3-4 4-3 or any defense.....

    So, these are the guys that tie your hands on the defense you install - Instead of installing the FLEX DEFENSE you have experience in, you just throw it away and run a straight 4-3 for Vilma and Rbertson???

    Bahhhh... Vilma should have been better in this defense and not THAT far away from what Harris gave you.. So ADIOS!!!!!

    I'm sure this staff weighed this out all for the LONG TERM..... Heck, the last staff took us from a 3-4 defense to a 4-3 and didn't even know what defense they wanted - hiring a 3-4 coach... THAT was the mistake, making up some hybrid cover two defense on the fly.... I'm greatful this staff has a plan.


    And when it comes to building a team - You use the draft AND FA- I like the fact that they didn't spend at 1st and now used that saved money on 2 Key positions..


    And the icing on the cake is last year's draft was a HOME RUN.. So, they possibly getting their cake and eating it too!!!!! They are building both ways...

    And the leadership aspect of Faneca is what should really help the whole offense...
     
  13. Tballlz63

    Tballlz63 Active Member

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    yeah these moves should've been made last year, but i guess they figured they would lose the team if they traded all those players at the end of a playoff year. still it should've been done last year as was pointed out earlier the D was not dominant at all in 06
     
  14. This is where you and I disagree.

    I'm sure you'll agree that to some level both vilma and D rob are tremendously gifted players....and arguably the best players on our D when mangini arrived.

    It's hard to just dump your 2 best players from your D, who are extremely young, w/o even seeing what they could accomplish in the scheme. Hell despite being an Ill fit D rob was STILL our best D-linemen the last 2 years. W/o him we wouldve never went 10-6 2 years ago..and couldve been staring at 1-15 rather than 4-12.

    They tried to make some changes schematically to help both players..unfortunately it just didnt work out. We are not the only team to ever make this mistake..It's a league wide issue.
     
  15. KRhodesMVP

    KRhodesMVP Banned

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    Keeping Robertson wasnt an option for the Jets- hes ill suited to the 3-4 and hes gonna make 12 million in 08 (counting 3 million bonus). Tannenbaum just traded a player who hasnt established himself in 4 seasons, who is a terrible fit in a 3-4 and who would be making 12 million in 08 for a 4th and 5th round pick. This was a great trade for the Jets.
     
  16. 73klecko

    73klecko Member

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    Well said Beaman. It's just frustrating that you are trading a former #4 pick and former #12 pick, two players entering their prime, for 2 4th rounders and a 5th rounder. Whether they were good or not, that's not good business. Need to draft better.
     
  17. tangini_disciple

    tangini_disciple New Member

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    the cap savings is the key here. we don't want to spend 10% of our cap on a backup player.

    it looks like we're loading up on 4th round picks because we draft so well in that round! let's hope we get a few good players there (OL depth, slot receiver, safety, LB depth?).
     
  18. Jet Blue

    Jet Blue New Member

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    I believe they floated Drob around last year... If there's no buyers at that higher price then there's no deal....

    As for Vilma - I really think he was overrated... I watched tape of games last year and he was missing 1 on 1 tackles in space - Now THAT has nothing to do with "System"... Guy was way too lost at times...

    Look back, Vilma had a good year for a Rookie and then the next year was the Disaster year where opponents just ran on us and the offense was incapable of anything - So, Vilma racked up STATS.... Not the career people make it out to be.

    I think, the staff felt that if Vilma was as good as advertised that he would be much better in the Flex defense they were running......


    I've been a darksider as much as anyone in my career as a Jets fans, but, I think this staff has a good plan and while we can disagree that maybe they should have gotten a little mre value here and there- They have been drafting well, and these moves look pretty good....
     
  19. Jet Blue

    Jet Blue New Member

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    HUH???? You can't draft much better than last year...

    DROB was the last regimes draft.... At this point you analyze the talent you have and you get the players you want... The fact that Freaking Bradway spent TWO 1st round picks on DROB should have no bearing at all on this move.
     
  20. Jet Blue

    Jet Blue New Member

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    EXACTLY - Plus the fact that there were rumors of guys being shopped and we have no idea if and how much they tired to deal these guys in the past.

    Plus both are now injury concerns - Both are due big $$ soon and Vilma has been WAY over rated.
     

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