This article on how CBs are overrated in today's NFL is dead on IMO. The bigger point is that stopping the run and rushing the passer make a defense great nowadays, not cover corners in the secondary. The Jets have done plenty to shore up the run defense, but two outside linebackers in Thomas and Pace who have not shown that they can rush the passer consistently, this is still a glaring need for the Jets. That is why the Jets should target a pass rusher with their first round pick, be it Long, Gholston, or Harvey. Raiders will regret spending millions on "average" Hall By Sal Paolantonio ESPN.com Updated: April 19, 2008 Dale Zanine/US Presswire Don't be fooled by DeAngelo Hall's two Pro Bowl selections, writes Sal Paolantonio. Hall has a bloated sense of self-worth and is prone to making costly mistakes -- both mental and physical. The NFL's new math is mind-boggling: $80 million for Nate Clements, $59.5 million for Asante Samuel, $70 million for DeAngelo Hall. What do those three players have in common besides a bank account now flush with cash? They are all cornerbacks. And as pro football's offseason transitions from free agency to the draft, paying that kind of unprecedented dough for that position is at the heart of an increasingly contentious debate. So, let's leap into this argument. Here's the question: Is the never-ending quest for the next great cover corner often paved with fool's gold? Here's the answer: Yes. Let's take the latest example. The Oakland Raiders have won only 19 games over the past five seasons. Since 1990, the only other team to win fewer than 20 games in a five-season span was the Bengals, who won 19 from 1998 to 2002, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. What was the Raiders' biggest problem in 2007? They couldn't stop the run. The defense allowed 4.8 yards per rush last season, worst in the league. It was the highest average ever allowed by an Al Davis team. So what did Oakland do? With Warren Sapp retiring, the Raiders signed Giants defensive tackle William Joseph -- but mostly for depth. Their biggest free-agent pursuit was a cornerback: Hall, who ran himself out of Atlanta. In a trade, the Falcons got second- and fifth-round draft picks from the Raiders, who promptly made Hall a very rich man. And what did the Raiders get? One of the most overrated defensive backs in recent league history. One of the great "SportsCenter" highlights of Hall's career is from a game against the Steelers in 2006. You remember that -- when Pittsburgh wide receiver Hines Ward sprinted past Hall for a spectacular 70-yard touchdown catch and run. What's so remarkable about that play? Ward was missing one shoe. DeAngelo Hall (left) had trouble keeping up with Pittsburgh's Hines Ward (86) during this game in 2006. And that play was unusual. Most opposing receivers beat Hall deep while still wearing both shoes. Hall, who has been to two Pro Bowls, possesses many of the qualities great cornerbacks have. Great speed. Remarkable athleticism. Terrific leaping ability. Huge ego. "I always feel like I'm the best guy out there," Hall once said. "When a guy catches a pass, it almost seems like luck to me. If a guy makes another catch, I'm like, 'Two? How did that happen?'" In reality, Hall is an average cornerback who takes needless chances, gives up a staggering number of big plays, has never helped his team win anything and wore out his welcome with the franchise that drafted him in just four years. "Everybody pumps him up like he's Deion Sanders," Lions receiver Roy Williams said. "But he's not Deion Sanders. He's DeAngelo Hall. He's not the shutdown type of corner that everybody expects him to be." In three of Hall's four seasons in Atlanta, the Falcons ranked 22nd or worse in pass defense, and only once did they manage a winning season: in his rookie year (2004), when he was a part-time starter. So don't expect Hall's presence to improve the Raiders' pass defense dramatically in 2008. But don't blame Hall for the folly of his contract. If the Raiders want to pay him $70 million, Hall should take every penny. However, there is plenty of evidence that throwing good money at mediocre cornerbacks destroys teams' salary caps and does not improve their pass defenses. Let's look at the San Francisco 49ers. In 2007, they jumped at the chance to sign Clements from the Buffalo Bills. The Niners' deal with Clements was eight years for $80 million. And what did the Niners get? From 2006 to 2007, the opposition's passing yards went up (from 3,817 to 3,826), interceptions went down (from 14 to 12) and sacks went down (34 to 31). And that's with the NFL's defensive rookie of the year, linebacker Patrick Willis. It's obvious what the Niners really needed: a pass rush. That's why coach Mike Nolan persuaded his front office to sign defensive end Justin Smith from the Bengals. Did the Niners overpay for Smith, who had just two sacks last season? Maybe so. But they had no choice. You can cover all day, but if you can't rush the passer, you're not going to win in today's NFL. The New York Giants proved that. Did you watch their Super Bowl XLII victory over the New England Patriots ? In case you were one of the few Americans who missed it, that was indeed the most prolific offense in NFL history shut down by Steve Spagnuolo's defense. And guess what? Spags had no shutdown corners. So, it didn't take big-name corners with big contracts to shut down Randy Moss and the most productive passing game in the history of pro football. In the past five years, the head of league officiating, Mike Pereira, has made calling defensive pass interference and defensive holding downfield a point of emphasis -- thus diminishing the effectiveness of cover corner play. Here's more evidence: In 2007, the Detroit Lions traded corner Dre' Bly to the Denver Broncos. And what happened? The Broncos' pass defense promptly got worse. It surrendered more touchdown passes: 13 in 2006, 25 in 2007. Denver's interceptions went down (17 in 2006, 14 in 2007). So did sacks (35 in 2006, 33 in 2007). In 2007, Indianapolis Colts president Bill Polian, who never gets enticed by free-agent seductions, let cornerback Jason David walk away. Another smart move by Polian. David was signed by the New Orleans Saints for four years, $16.5 million. And, you guessed it, the New Orleans pass defense went downhill. The opposition passed for more yards: 3,122 in 2006 to 4,122 in 2007. Completion percentage was up: 56.3 in 2006 to 62.4 in 2007. Touchdown passes surrendered were up, too: 26 in 2006, 32 in 2007. Why? Sacks were down. The Saints had just 32 sacks in 2007, after collecting 38 the year before David arrived. What's more, in 2007, New Orleans allowed 15 pass plays of at least 40 yards -- tying the Baltimore Ravens for most in the league, according to Elias. This offseason, hoping to improve their last-in-the-league turnover total, the Eagles jumped into the free-agent market, signing Pro Bowl cornerback Samuel to replace oft-injured Lito Sheppard. Samuel had 16 interceptions over the past two seasons -- tops in the NFL and double what Sheppard had for Philadelphia the past two years. Samuel's addition to the Eagles' roster should provide the kind of turnaround in pass defense that coach Andy Reid was looking for. But Reid hedged his bet on Samuel. To improve Philadelphia's pass rush, after signing Samuel, the Eagles acquired defensive end Chris Clemons from the Raiders. Which brings us back to Oakland and the decision to sign Hall to a megadeal. Nobody has been better at marketing himself than Hall. However, a quick look at Hall's impact in his four years with Atlanta tells a different story: Saints-Falcons, Nov. 26, 2006: In the final seconds of the first half, Drew Brees unloaded a Hail Mary toward the New Orleans end zone. Hall was in position to knock the ball down and prevent a touchdown, but instead tried for a needless interception to pad his stats. He missed. And Saints reserve Terrance Copper came down with the football and a 48-yard touchdown that turned a 14-6 lead into a spirit-crushing 21-6 advantage as the first half ended. The Saints went on to win 31-13. "I was being kind of lazy," Hall explained after the game. Then there was the Falcons-Panthers game this past September. The Falcons had lost their first two games of the season but led Carolina 17-10 late in the third quarter. They had outgained the Panthers by more than 200 yards and were on the brink of salvaging their season with a win. But as Hall left the field before a Carolina fourth down, his trash-talking with Panthers receiver Steve Smith got so out of control that Hall was flagged for taunting -- his third penalty, for a tally of 67 yards lost in 82 seconds. What was Hall saying to Smith? "I've been in as many Pro Bowls as you; I make more money than you," Smith said. "Just real immature stuff." The Panthers -- thanks to the fresh set of downs -- scored a touchdown two plays later, then another before the quarter was over, eventually winning 27-20. "You have to try to control yourself," Falcons teammate Warrick Dunn said. On the final day of the 2006 season, the Falcons' hapless secondary was torched for a career-high 324 yards and three TDs by Eagles backup quarterback A.J. Feeley. Hall didn't spend much time covering anybody that day, but he certainly made an impression on Eagles receiver Donte' Stallworth. "He called me a bum," Stallworth said. "He kept saying he's been to two Pro Bowls and I haven't been to any. Well, this bum is going to be in the playoffs next week while that two-time Pro Bowler is out on the golf course."
The more I think about it, the more I think Pace will be playing the interior in 3-4 sets and we will be drafting a speed rusher with either the 1st or 2nd round pick. If we trade down, then I think it's guaranteed.
You know, I was wondering if Pace could transition to ILB too. It would be really nice if he could considering how many good 3-4 OLB prospects there are in this draft. The only thing I'd question, not having seen him play, is whether he can read the play quickly enough (because things happen faster inside) and whether he can shed/avoid blocks quickly enough to be effective on the inside runs. Also, I worry about BT's coverage ability because I'd assume he'd have to cover a back or end in a man coverage scheme. He'll be okay to good rushing the passer now that we have more blitzing options (hopefully one more with the draft) and he's very good setting the edge on run plays but he's never looked anything better than adequate in coverage. Even if Pace stay outside though I guess Thomas would have to drop back sometimes anyway. Just hope he's been working on that in the offseason.
We can get a nice pass rusher in Round 2. Groves and Avril are two guys I want the Jets to target if they are able to get McFadden in Round one.
This team is loaded with needs. I don't see how an edge rusher who gets on the field on 3rd downs is more important than a sure tackeling CB who can cover and come up in run support. The rules have made it tougher to cover but they have also made it easier to hold off the edge rusher and exploit the vacated position. The Giants beat NE with great pressure up the middle and on the edge along with a vastly improved young secondary that played much better in the playoffs than they did during the season.
Don is on the money....there's no way the Jets blow that kind of money for Pace to play the inside.... The Jets will most likely take offensive players in the first 2 rounds, with the exception being a CB possibility in the 1st round (based on need)....I'm hoping for a WR in the 2nd round (Hardy, Manningham, trade up for Desean Jackson perhaps).....with the hopes that the Jets looks to draft for depth in the 4th round (LB's and DL's) To me...that makes sense......IMO.
They are looking for a player that can play multiple positions in multiple sets. I think Pace would go inside for 3-4 sets while a blue chip edge rusher would play OLB, although Pace could rotate to the outside on some of those sets to breathe the rookie on occasion while Barton regretfully takes to rotation at ILB, they could switch situationally 4-3 with Pace at WLB, Barton at SLB, Harris at MLB with the rookie at RDE (also in nickel and dime sets in rotation with Coleman). It's not going ot be a situational player we draft in the first round. Every first round rookie this FO has drafted was a starter from day 1, with heavy playing time. I don't think Mangini believes in drafting first round projects. And our pass rush needs all the help it can get. I think we take a corner in round 2.
As previously stated, this team has many needs. One of which is lack of overall depth and overall talent. How do you shore this up? Drafting the best player available and not reaching. If Gholston or Long fall to # 6...by all means, make the pick..but if Harvey is the pick...we are avery foolish franchise.
I wouldn't want to take a pass rusher that early unless it were Long or Gholston, but then I'm also not paid a lot of money to scout them in practice, talk to their coaches, and study hours of their game tape, either. Sometimes, well most of the time actually, better players fall through the cracks. I wasn't a big fan of trading up for Revis last year, but in hindsight they got good value for the trade-up so far. Same with Harris, although he fell further than he should have so I think we got better-than-good value for his trade-up. However, if we reach for a guy that they do a mis-read on, that could also put even more pressure on the FO no matter how well the FA moves and the trades work out this year. If they are that sure about a guy like Harvey to draft him that high, I won't be happy but I will reserve my judgment until I see him on the field. Hype or no hype. Terry Bradway's scouting team has let us down in the past. But they were getting the want-list from Herm and not Mangini, so we'll see how it pans out. I think Mangini's want list extends past "Get me somebody who is identical to Warren Sapp" or "Get me the next Ray Lewis".
That's a VERY good point. It is interesting that the player evaluation portion has seemed to have gotten ALOT better from that group since Herm left and Mangini took over. It could also have to do w/ the promotion of Clinkscale who def. knows his stuff.
They drafted the guy to be versatile, and he showed in AZ during their hybrid transition that he could rush the passer from the down position and from his feet, that he was aware enough to drop back into coverage. Here's a quote from Mangini in that Mo Lewis article: "He played outside, he put his hand down on third down and he played sub-end, which is consistent with what we do, " Mangini said. "He played in the middle in some of their substitute defenses, like a buck rover type position. To see him in all those different spots [was important]." EDIT: I figured I'd add part of another quote from the Mo Lewis article since you brought up Pace's speed/size and the possibility of shedding blocks on the inside: "He reminded me a lot of Mo Lewis on tape: big, strong, fast, fluid guy," Mangini said at the league meetings in West Palm Beach, Fla. "For a guy that size, not just height but weight, as fluid as he was, that was the player comparison that came to mind right away." Size and fluid speed are what interior LBs need in the 3-4, because most of the time shedding blocks amounts to not a lot more than presenting an oblique and quickly-moving target to the blocker. This was the problem Vilma had, many times he would actually square-up on the blocker and not make much of a move. He's a 4-3 MLB and doesn't want to be anything else, since he knows he will not have to take on many O-linemen in that scheme. He's not built to take on guys with that much of a wingspan. Now, that could all be a smokescreen so they could make other teams think Long/Gholston and be wanting to play Pace at the outside permanently, but it's not a consistent way of thinking with this FO's past history. They are playing players at many different positions. Shaun Ellis playing at ROLB a few times this year and I wouldn't be surprised to see him there again situationally. That scares the shit out of quarterbacks. I am sure that we will see Pace at both ILB and OLB, because we didn't pay him $31 million just to play OLB. BT is a different story. I don't know what to make of him at OLB but he is certainly not versatile enough to play from all of the schemes. He is only passable from the down position and his pass coverage is severely lacking at OLB. If anybody wants to be mad at paying a player, it should be with this guy. He's certainly not the type of player it seems like they are looking for, and they extended him after a surprising one season of performance. He needs good players around him to succeed, hopefully he will be a superior role-player in that circumstance. The Pats have been making superior role-players look like superstars for years. Or maybe that's just the cheating. hmy:
Well let's not forget that BT moved from weakside to strongside this past season...and may not have made alot of plays like he did at weak side...but he was still solid in coverage and against the run. He just didn't make the plays. IMO, This is one of the biggest things Pace offers. he allows BT to move back to weakside where he flourished, w/o sacrificing size,versaility or athletic aility like we did w/ guys like Hobson. I'm actually expecting a bigger year out of BT than i am Pace. Not that pace will be bad, but that BT will LOVE going back to his old spot in space.
The problem is, we are not just playing a 3-4 base defense, we are playing multiple schemes, and if BT is only good in one position of one scheme, he is nothing but a glorified role-player on this team. Compared with the amount of money he got on his extension, I am not impressed. If this defense is successful and BT is still in place, I expect he will have maybe a season or two of very good stats relying on excellent players around him to free him up, and will be nice. And in such a case, maybe we'll even rook some team out of some draft picks a few years down the road when we trade him and replace him with someone better (and I have no doubt that this is the best case scenario for BT in a business sense). But I think even in that event the Jets are overpaying for him.
I think we take McFadden or Ryan but I really don't think it matters all that much. We have needs fill one of them with the highest rated player.
I think it'd be a great thing if we could get one of Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey, Quentin Groves, or Cliff Avril with our first 2 picks. Having 3 OLBs with Pace, Thomas, and one of those guys along with Bowens coming in every once in a while would immediately boost our pass rush.
No way Pace plays the ILB, he will be the ss OLB. Harris and Barton will be inside. If the Jets draft either Harvey (yes) or Gholson, Thomas will be the OLB on first and second down, for this year at least, and the rookie will come in on passing downs to pin his ears back, and crush QB's. This will be an excellent D if that happens
