We need a playmaker: Draft McFadden

I agree to an extent. I say first try to trade down and stockpile picks. IF you don't get a king's ransom of an offer (they way the Bears fleeced us for Drob), then take McFadden. DON'T stay put and take an underachiever like D'Brick or Drob!!!!!!!!

 

Okay, simply put, you ignored the point of what I posted.

What teams do Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, LT, and Willie Parker play for?

Are they playoff bound teams, with talent across both sides of the ball?

Or are they the Jets, with ineptitude on both lines, little depth at WR/CB, and a QB situation yet to have a final answer?

The Lions lost because they weren't a quality team. They had the best RB ever (IMO), and yet they couldn't win it all.

You can come up with excuses as to why Minny has won without Peterson, but the fact is, they won. I can list a dozen reasons we should have at least 2 or 3 more wins. An excuse doesn't change the facts.

I'm not saying we blow a #3 pick on a NT. I'm saying we look around for offers for someone to take the pick off our hands.

 

While I usually respect most of your posts, Alio's above points do have considerable merit, Murrell2878.

But I have to address the above emboldened area of your last post because this is the second time you've mentioned this an argument to bolster your position, that we shouldn't use a top 5 pick on a DT. Did anyone say that in any posts around here? If so, I haven't read it. I don't think that ANYONE has advocated doing that (yet), at least not what I've read.

My problem is, we only have enough spending capital to throw around. It's like the guy who goes Christmas shopping with $300 in his pocket. If he buys his girl the $280 earings, what about everything else on his list?

If we do get the #5 pick, I'd probably trade down, which is what it seems like many here are advocating also. We've just got too many damned needs to go buying McFadden, much less what it'll cost us to sign him then.

I still have to disagree with burning the #5 on one "playmaker." Your points are well taken and believe me, I do know that we need a "spark," etc., but you also have to know that after you blow your wad on your "playmaker" and you line him up with Smith and Coles and Cotchery et al, what happens when your O-line continues to collapse in passing situations and keeps getting knocked on their asses in running plays?

We're not making holes big enough to do jack-squat right now. What's going to change that enables McFadden to get room? I know, you want all our line problems handled in F/A. But something's going to have to give to get those deals done and there's only so much to trade and spend, particularly if you're planning on drafting McFadden at #5.

My thinking is (and maybe I'm wrong), but if you solidify both lines (trade down... trade for other players, whatever), and you wind up with the meanest bunch of bastards you ever want to recon with on both lines, I think we've got some excellent talent that will be able to get it done... and THOSE will BECOME our 'playmakers." Show me a team with two excellent lines and I'll show you a playoff contender.

 

We've been drafting too "light in the ass" right along, in my opinion. Not enough ass. One of the few knocks on D'Brick, in fact, was he was slightly undersized. But that was going to be okay, remember? Because he was fast and agile. But I'm still okay with Brick. I think he's still work out on the left side and Mangold is here to stay too... those two I'm okay with. But we really never had a solid answer for Kendall's departure. Clarke isn't working out and there's rumor circulating that What's-his-name (can't remember his backup) might get some time. But all that is one, huge Band-Aid all the way over to the right side. The beginning of the end for us was when Kareem McKensie walked. It seems like it was all down hill from there, even with the drafting of Mangold and Ferguson, and we're still sliding. Every game looks worse than the one before it.

Same thing with Robertson. Not enough "ass." Come the 3rd and 4th quarter, how much gas is this guy expected to have in his tank as a NT, really? I think Ellis is a good player still and even Robertson has his bright spots, so I'd keep them and use them. But move Robertson off NT, for God's sake. And we need an authentic, manhandling pass-rusher and the entire line needs to be bigger, eventually. I won't be satisfied until our linemen average 20 pounds more than our opponents. I'm sick and tired of seeing our lines shoved around like Matchbox toys. IF YOU DON'T CONTROL THE LINES OF SCRIMMAGE, YOU DON'T CONTROL SQUAT IN THE ENTIRE GAME. The Bills make us look like freakin' midgets.

We need to draft/acquire more "ass," period. I'm sick of the finesse game. We've tried the finesse crap up the whazoo. If Tannenbaum (and especially) Mangini TRULY want to run a real 3-4, then they need to start with a Caterpillar Bulldozer of a NT... the heaviest, meanest bastard in the NFL, to anchor and start the beginning of a true NY Jets dynasty of our own.

And if you truly want a really awesome running game, then don't start with the freakin' RB. You're kidding yourself BIG TIME if you think that will get it done. CONTROL the LOS and THEN go after some F/A, disgruntled, misguided, underappreciated-but-talented RB who kicks ass and takes names. They're around. I just don't see trying to build around them. Build your line first, then build around that.

We've going about this ass-backwards.

 

Yep, this was a Terry Bradway specialty and it's continued in the new regime. Stiff the line and pay the talent and then throw your hands up when it doesn't work.

Long-term Jets moves since 2001 and how they have effected the fronts, people are included if they have contributed over 3 seasons for the Jets or would have if they stayed around. I ignored all of the one season moves the Jets made for people who were not core members of the units but I kept in the retirements of long-term Jets to show where gaps occurred:

2001
Draft Kareem McKenzie [+1 Offense]
Draft James Reed [+.5 Defense]

2002
Lose Kerry Jenkins to Free Agency [-1 Offense]
Lose James Farrior to Free Agency [-1 Defense]
Draft Bryan Thomas [+.5 Defense]
Draft Jonathan Goodwin [No effect]

2003
Draft DeWayne Robertson [+1 Defense]
Draft Victor Hobson [+1 Defense]
Lose Randy Thomas to Free Agency [-1 Offense]
Lose Jumbo Elliot to Retirement [-1 Offense]

2004
Draft Jonathan Vilma [+1 Defense]
Sign Eric Barton in Free Agency [+1 Defense]
Lose Mo Lewis to Retirement [-1 Defense]
Lose Marvin Jones to Retirement [-1 Defense]
Draft Adrian Jones [No effect]

2005
Draft Sione Pouha [+.5 Defense]
Lose Jason Ferguson to Free Agency [-1 Defense]
Sign Pete Kendall in Free Agency [+1 Offense]
Lose Kareem McKenzie to Free Agency [-1 Offense]

2006
Lose John Abraham to Trade [-1 Defense]
Lose James Reed to Free Agency [-.5 Defense]
Lose Kevin Mawae to Free Agency [-1 Offense]
Lose Jason Fabini to Free Agency [-1 Offense]
Draft D'Brickashaw Ferguson [+1 Offense]
Draft Nick Mangold [+1 Offense]

2007
Lose Pete Kendall to Trade [-1 Offense]
Draft David Harris [+1 Defense]

Ok, so now 6 years into the post-Parcells Jets we have the following long-term investments in the fronts:

Offense: -3

This is a legitimate -3. The Jets have just slighted the offensive line for far too long, primarily because of their cheapness in re-signing their own free agents or replacing them with other team's free agents.

Defense: +1.5

The numbers on the defensive side look good, however most of the talent in the front 7 is playing in a scheme that they are not suited for. If you take into account the likely subtractions of Vilma, Hobson and Barton this offseason the Jets will be in negative overall territory before the draft is taken into account. And the Jets really need to spend picks on the offensive line this year

 

Five playoff appearances in 10 years. Pretty good for that franchise. I would say that Sanders was the chief reason the Lions made the playoffs those five years.

How many other special players did those Detroit teams have? Bennie Blades, Ray Crockett, Chris Spielman, Robert Porcher, Jerry Ball, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman and Lomas Brown were all good, but none were spectacular.

 

I did not care much for Bush in 2004. I changed my mind in 2005 and thought he could be a major player in the NFL. It is looking like I was smarter in 2004 than I was in 2005 because Bush is not a major force right now. He is a good player, but he is not magnificent.

I have been highly impressed by McFadden dating back to his freshman year. I have been watching college football since 1992 and the best pro prospects in this time period at RB were Marshall Faulk at San Diego State, Adrian Peterson at Oklahoma, and Darren McFadden at Arkansas. The fourth guy on my list was a very, very distant fourth (Ronnie Brown is that guy; I thought he was a slightly better pro prospect than his teammate, Cadillac Williams). Like the Colts in 1994 and the Vikings in 2007, whoever drafts McFadden will hit a home run.

 

we need an o-line. if jones and washington cant gain yards this rookie isnt gonna carry the offense any better

 

This is an absolutely brilliant "balance sheet," Bradwaysux.

Seriously man, your math is excellent. I'd disagree with some of the numbers (like Pouha a +.5 Defense, because I've yet to see Pouha contribute much of anything), but overall you still get an A+ from me in terms of laying it out.

I'm asking all of you... yes... calling all of you out that favor some sort of cockamamie "playmaker" to be taken with our possible #5, to answer this one, huge, elephant-in-the-ointment question: When we go up against larger, manhandling lines like NE or especially the ones Buffalo has, and when even the TV announcers comment on the size difference of the lines and the obvious discrepancy and how we're getting shoved every which way but Sunday, what part of that is not understandable to you as a basis for dominating the entire game?

Please explain, because I'd really like to know how you think you can build a legitimate Superbowl contender without first controlling the lines of scrimmage.

 

It's quite simple, really. McFadden is head and shoulders a better RB than Jake Long is a lineman and whatever other guys you want to throw at me. As far as defenders, again, Chris Long is not a better lineman than McFadden is a RB. Glen Dorsey would be okay with me if the Jets ran a 4-3 base defense. They don't, so to heck with Dorsey.
Get the linemen in free agency. The Jets are fine at LT and C. They can keep Moore at RG. Just work on LG and RT.
Jason Brown is a restricted free agent. Maybe the Jets would have interest. Pork Chop Womack is an unrestricted free agent. He's a backup in Seattle, but he is a fat, big guy. For RT, Sean Locklear and Max Starks are certainly worth looking at (both are UFAs), although neither are stellar. Ryan Lilja has been mentioned by other posters. There are, of course, other players to consider.

What about Tommy Kelly? He has experience inside and outside, although I don't think he'd fare well as a nose tackle.

Flozell Adams probably will not be resigned by the Cowboys. Is it possible the Jets could sign him to play right tackle (he plays LT for Dallas)?

Chris Canty will be a restricted free agent. He was born in the Bronx. I don't know when he left. He went to high school in North Carolina, but maybe he'd like to come back to the NY area.

I think it would be great if the Jets can draft McFadden, sign two new starters on the offensive line through free agency, sign a defensive end through free agency, trade Dewayne Robertson and bring in a player more suited for nose tackle.

 

I guess I'm just not selling my point vigorously enough. I want two monster lines on the NY Jets. I'd like to do that at all cost this year, bar none. In other words, whatever it takes to lay out whatever capital we have is what I'd like to spend on both lines. I'm not interested in hybrid comprimises any more. I'd like to see two of the best lines in the NFL here in NY, and no question as to how good they are. Whatever it takes to get the best people in here is what I'd like to see.

Now, if anything is left over after that, well... fine. But I wouldn't be disappointed if nothing was left over, because that's how badly both our lines suck. Go after and sign the best that's available though F/A and the draft and build it. The rest will fall into place once we start knocking other teams on their asses and pushing their lines all over the field.

Don't foget one huge thing... doing that would make everyone's job a whole, helluva lot easier.

 

We really need to handle the lines first.

Going to get McFadden or any other skill player in the top 5 is going to be like eating dessert before we even know if dinner is cooked.

 

Thank you Cakes. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. :up:

 

The Patriots will probably end up drafting McFadden.

I want you guys to really think about that.

 

mcfadden isnt gonna do anything different than TJ without a hole! the o-line isnt made up of bad players at all, the problem is that the o-line is way undersized and so is the d-line, did anyone notice the size of the cowboys o and d-lines compared to ours, draft desean jackson at wr

 

and dont use another top pick on lineman either, its 50-50 whether they'll play to their potential or not, u can get an over acheiving 5th rounder to do the same things, so either draft em l8r or use free agency and trades

 

Am I reading this correctly?
You don't want McFadden because the offensive line is not good right now. But then instead of a lineman you want the team to draft a kick returner (Jackson would not be a starting WR for the Jets in 2008).

 

jackson is not just a kick returner, yea thats where most of his highlights come from but hes a DEEP THREAT something the jets havent established at all

 

Why cant we have our cake and eat it? it seems like the majority of the argument here is that some feel we need a playmaker and some feel that we need to address the line first to make holes for him. Why cant we have both?

My point would be to say that even if we trade out of a high pick who is to say that getting two spots in the first round will benefit us on the O-line, we could end of with two possible talents that we hope will pan out rather than a player with a high chance of being a league star.

The way I look at it is that if we were to draft Mcfadden then why could we not then go after lineman in the following rounds. Most good offensive lineman are picked up in the lower rounds on the first day. And with maybe some free agency pickups on defense we suddenly have a whole new feel about the team.