Ok first of all even if you consider the pop up incident bush league (which i dont think it was, yelling and all that crap happens all the time) it doesn't mean you try and hurt the player by deliberately hitting him in his knees so he does time in the DL. It's not A-rod's fault that the first toronto pitcher was incompetent and could not hit a-rod. at that point it was settled. but toronto felt they needed to hurt a-rod by clocking him in his knees, and on top of that the blue jays wanted to start a fight. then clemens rightfully retaliated as ANY pitcher would. he hit rios in the back, not in any area that would cahse serious damage (oh say like the knees) so clemens gets a FIVE GAME suspension for rightuflly defending his player as any pitcher would but towers gets off scottfree for trying to take out a-rods knees? this is grade A bullshit. stop hating on the yankees for the sake of hating on the yankees and blindly ignore the facts. you clearly do not watch much baseball
All I can say is I have been consistent regarding the issue of batter plunking in all my years of watching baseball (1984, 1985 is about when I started watching baseball on a regular basis). If Team A (Yankess in this case) does something bad, Team B (Blue Jays in this case) has the right to retaliate. If Team A decides to do something bad again, they are wrong. Finally, stop hating on Yankess haters for the sake of hating on Yankess haters.
If you're talking about arods yelling incident, it happens. But they tried throwing at him once for it already and failed. So, fast-foward to the game where rocket got ejected... Arod was thrown at first. Clemens waited 6 innings until retaliating.
Because he was a douchebag during the previous trip to Toronto. He had no good reason to retaliate (and MLB is on the same page, so I have that going for me which is nice). You won't convince me otherwise.
The Stankes are paying RECORD MONEY to a 45 year old sub 500 pitcher. Man talk about egg on our face!
Stop posting. You fail at the English language. On topic, it WAS bush league by A-Rod for the yelling incident, and he did deserve retaliation. It's embarrassing that the Blue Jays fucked up in retaliating. Embarrassing for them, anyway. It's their choice to try again, I guess. I think it also leaves the Yankees open for retaliating (again) just because the Blue Jays failed at hitting a batter. At some point, the officials had to intervene.
Jerry Remy, former second baseman and announcer for the Red Sox, has said on-air that it happened to him all the time. ETA: In terms of whether it was deserved, I felt Roger's retaliation was a good thing for a number of reasons: 1. The "Ha" play happened in May, and the Jays and Yanks had already played a series. It should've been over already. 2. The Jays had already thrown at A-Rod once. Message sent. Move on. 3. Even "undeserved" re-retailiation serves a purpose. It can make other teams think twice about retaliating. It's one of the biggest disadvantages the Yanks have had in terms of attitude over recent years, in my opinion. Especially in the AL. If a pitcher thinks he can throw inside all day long without any concern that his teammates are at risk, then that pitcher gains an advantage.
I have watched MLB games for over 20 years and I never saw this happen or discussed. When that incident happened there were many, many baseball people who claimed what A-Rod did was not a normal thing.
Good for you. But all I'm doing is offering evidence provided directly from the mouth of someone who actually PLAYED the game. Believe him, don't believe him. I couldn't care less. Just know that your claim that it does not happen all the time is disputed by those who have actually played the game, and that this might be worthy of some consideration instead of just relying on that which the announcers, players and/or media choose to make a story out of (because it's not very often you see whether or not something is said on the basepaths... the only time it would ever be an issue is if an infielder is dense enough to let it distract him).
If I cared to I could do a Google search and provide many quotes from people who actually PLAYED the game and said what A-Rod did was bush league. Alas, I don't particularly care to do so tonight. Maybe tomorrow. However, I don't think it is necessary. Unless you were in a cave a couple months ago, you heard the same quotes I did from people who actually PLAYED the game.
And here's some quotes from somebody that not only played the game but managed it too. I'll choose to agree with Weaver over some of the others. "Those are the little extra things that help you win," Hall of Fame manager Earl Weaver was saying recently. "(The Jays) got mad when he hollered at the infield, but I don't understand. He's helping his team win. "That's what I call a ballplayer." Weaver, speaking before the latest events this week, just shook his head and chuckled at the perceived faux paus in etiquette. Then he told of the old days, when, on a close play at the plate, players would holler "Cut it off!" at the defense, hoping the confusion might cause an over-zealous cutoff man to actually snatch the ball out of the air on its way to the plate. "People have criticized A-Rod for trying to knock the ball out (of Bronson Arroyo's hand in the ALCS against Boston a few years back)," Weaver said. "I saw Eddie Stanky slide into Phil Rizzuto in the World Series and kick the ball clear into left field. "Rodriguez outsmarted people when he hollered. That's part of the game."
Okay, you want to be like this. Aww schucks, now I have to provide quotes. I understand you guys are Yankess fans and hell if you are going to say something anti-Yankess in this thread. I suppose it was too much to think you'd be fair here. I'll start with your manager. "He may have been excited about the fact that we were leading the ballgame," Torre said Friday before his team's series opener at Boston. "It was probably inappropriate to do it at the time he did it, but you can't change it, unfortunately." "They were angry," Torre said. "Oh, there's no question. I can't say I blame them, but what are you going to do about it? What's happened has happened." "It's probably something he shouldn't have done," Torre said. "I don't sense he's going to do it again."
Look, it's pretty simple. You said you "never saw it happen or discussed" and used your "20 years of watching the game" as authoritative evidence. "Never" you said. This, to back up your claim that "it doesn't happen all the time." At the very least, by finding numerous quotes from both sides of the argument (and at the time it was covered, it seemed to be 50/50 as to whether the talking heads thought it was bush league or not), we're just muddying the waters, and making it even more difficult for you to claim that it definitely doesn't happen all the time. The existence of even two quotes saying that it happened should destroy any certainty in this idea that it rarely happens. Note: I'm not saying it definitely DOES happen all the time. I don't know. I never really paid attention to it. But the only reason I see to be so convinced that it never happens is if you're willing to believe anything that fits in the "A-Rod is Bad" box. And for the record, I didn't like the play, and thought he should've kept his mouth shut. Yes, I, a Yankee fan, thought it was bush league. I don't, however, think it was bush league because it was something that never happens in the majors. ETA: Do you not see the difference between not liking the play, and talking about the play as though it were some super-rare despicable act of unsportsmanlike conduct the likes of which baseball has never seen?
Even if we consider what ARod did to be Bush League, here is the series of events: 1) ARod yells "Hah" and two douchebag infielders drop a ball between them. (Plain and simple, if you watch the replay, they both simply misplayed the ball. ARod was a scapegoat for a terrible play.) 2) The Yanks and Jays play each other, no retaliation occurs. 3) Both teams go through half a year, and play each other again. One more game goes by, no retaliation. 4) A piss-poor attempt at retaliation is made in game 2, but the pitcher MISSES. At this point, retaliation has been made. Alex Rodriguez, regardless of the fact that it took this long to do, lets it slide. 5) The next day, since the previous attempt missed, Towers purposely hits ARod in the leg. Sorry, but you don't get to retaliate until you get it right. It's one and done, or none. 6) Towers can't STFU so ARod lets him know he isn't going to just stand there and take that crap. So the benches clear, and douchebags like Stairs purposely seek out ARod to pick a fight. 7) Clemens, who has thrown a masterpiece to that point, nails Rios in the back. Ejection. No brawl. Wonder why? Maybe because Gibbons knew it was coming? Clemens deserves a suspension. You can't just let wars go on and on, which it would if there were no penalty, but Clemens had to take the opportunity to defend his teammate. Then again, before the game even started, the umps could have put out a warning for no gunning at guys. Then again, the umps probably figured the situation settled, as any logical person would. Obviously the Jays are not logical. You can argue all you want Cakes, but you're wrong. What Clemens did was show that he wasn't going to allow teams to gun for his teammates at will. Any team in the same situation would do the same, and be fully justified. And I would say that even if the shoe was on the other foot, and the Yankees were throwing at guys multiple times for the same incident. Now Cakes, if you disagree with hitting ANYONE on purpose, then you should be condemning Toronto for TWICE attempting it. But you aren't. You're condemning Clemens, and it's obvious. So don't expect people to simply fall in line with your BS.
First of all, I am very surprised there are quotes (and I read and heard quotes both ways at the time and it seemed to be more like 75/25 in favor of it being bush league as to it being an acceptable baseball practice) from ex-players and managers that it was okay. From playing the game as a youth, from attending a Baseball USA camp, from reading countless baseball books, from watching MLB games in the first row, etc., sorry, but I never recall ever seeing or hearing about a player doing what A-Rod did. I really don't recall this type of incident ever happening. Truth be told, I don't see why a player can't or shouldn't do what A-Rod did. I think it is a stupid unwritten "rule" to not be able to distract fielders without them getting mad. However, it is considered bush league by many who play and coach the game. Therefore, if most think its bad...
I believe you missed something and/or incorrectly intrepreted something I wrote. I wrote this earlier in the thread: Do not confuse that with thinking I believe hitting batters is wrong 100% of the time. Toronto had a good reason to hit a Yankee batter. Clemens was out of line to retaliate.
You're ignoring a simple FACT repeatedly, simply because it ruins your point. Toronto threw at ARod TWICE. They missed the first time. Tough luck, you don't get a second chance. Attempting it TWICE is BUSH LEAGUE. But you keep ignoring that fact, over and over, because again, it ruins your point. Clemens retaliated for the SECOND attempt to throw at ARod, not the first. The Yankees let the first attempt slide, because it was JUSTIFIED. It's Toronto's fault they missed. Trying it twice provoked a LEGITIMATE RETALIATION. If you want to keep ignoring that fact, please just say so, and I'll ignore anything else you say in reference to this discussion.
Often times, a pitcher misses hitting a batter and then tries again. Why does it matter if the second try was a pitch later or a game later?
You don't have to apologize. But if some players and managers have talked about how it happened to them frequently, you might want to reconsider your certainty that it is some terribly infrequent act. In all of your watching of baseball, how many times were you paying attention to the baserunner as he ran around the bases on a pop up? My bet is... not very often. The reason for all the hub-bub this time is that it actually worked. That is what is horribly infrequent. It's NOT an unwritten rule. That's the whole point! It's not the pinnacle of sportsmanship, by any means, but it's not really any different than an borderline-out-of-the-basepath slide into second. Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
