Selfino against Jets trading up!

I know, was just playing the devils advocate. All the things the Jets needed in no way could be addressed in this weak FA period and this draft. It was a wish list.

I think the FO addresed the depth situation on DL but in no way did anyone they signed make your proverbial toes tingle. Of course there was no DLineman other than save Carriker where that would have been the case anyhow. As far as Pouha I can not see them counting on a 27 y/o player that has barely played a down in the NFL over the last 2 years. Robertson I admit was very good last year or at the very least improved immeasurably as the season progressed and you could not ask for more.

On the OL it is a little much to expect a 6th round small school lineman to come in and play as well or nearly as well as Mangold/Ferguson......... With the exception of those two the rest of the starters are stop gaps at this point.

Harris was a need, I just felt as needs go that DL was bigger hence it was more of a luxury pick. It really was not a true luxury.......... I could have chosen words better but I hope you get my meaning.

 

I like the picks of Revis and Harris. Normally I would prefer to trade down and accumulate picks, but if Tangini felt like the players we could get in the late 2nd and late 3rd were not rated high enough to take at those spots and would not contribute, then trading up for the best corner in the draft and a 1st round talent at ILB was the right thing to do. As far as the OL and DL goes they brought in DEs in freeagency who have to be better than KVO and 3-4 NTs don't fall off of trees. The OL was in part addressed with Bender who can play 4 positions. We still have Jones, Blanton, Smith, and Goddard who may be able to challenge for a starting spot in the Coaching staff's mind.

 

And to say that how the players turn out is irrelevant is one of the most riduclous things I have ever heard. Selfino is obviously a MORON!

 

I was thinking more along the lines of "misguided" and "uninformed" but Moron also fits the bill.

 

I agree with what he said. I don't think you need to dumb down the fact that Harris is a luxury. I hope he becomes great and all, but he is definitely a luxury. Who does he replace? Our linebacking core is pretty solid. The people who are going to keep blockers off Vilma are the DL.

As far as OL is concerned, we did squat. Yes, to me Bender is squat. We have huge holes on the OL. Kendall is old and has bad knees, Moore and Clement are average at best and our run game last year was poor. You can call this draft weak if you want, but one place where it was not weak was a guard.

We could have traded down gotten picks and still grabbed Blalock who could have solidified the right side and has potential to play tackle too. Plus guards often come in and contribute immediately, whereas CBs typically don't. With the extra picks we could have taken a flier on Solai amongst other options.

Assante Samuel was a 4th round pick. If our scouts are so good, they should have been able to find the diamond in the rough CB without having to trade up, and our former Secondary & DC head coach should have been able to develop this player.

I hope these players turn out well, but I am very displeased we gave away what we did to get what we got. We are not a couple players away by any stretch.

 

The jets aren't a Guard away either. I'm sorry, but if you want to talk about finding Assante in the 4th round, how come you over look that one of easy positions to fill in the NFL is Guard??? Nobody cares about Oline men, There will be 8-10 in next years, just like last years draft. You find your anchors then you paste and fill the other fat guys on the line, we have Mangold and Brick.

How can you guys be so displeased over Olinemen is beyond me. If there was a list of starters who were 5th round picks or lower, how high would Offensive line be??? 3rd behind Fullback and Kicker???LMAO

 

I don't think a smart FO trades a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounder for a luxury pick, and I believe our FO fancies themselves smart. We had a lot of holes coming into this offseason and inside the Linebackers wasn't exactly our shining point on defense. Our guys apparently didn't like what they saw in that unit enough to trade up for this guy. I think there is a lot more that will happen before this offseason is over, because I don't see them keeping either Vilma or Barton on the sideline and I don't know if Vilma would make much of a difference rushing from the edge. But we didn't see the run-stopping ability up the middle and it may have been partially attributed to size in Vilma's case but Barton was the one I expected to shine in this defensive alignment and he turned in a season of par. Not so much stat-wise, but he didn't create havoc the way he did in the 4-3.

I think he could improve, but the FO trading up for an ILB is a wake-up call for somebody when you have 2 veterans playing both the inside spots the previous season and they're both under contract on draft day. Harris was drafted to start.

 

So if the draft is like a crap shoot, then yes, it makes sense to have as many shots as possible, thus trade down and load up on picks. Like he said, why get 1 CB and 1 ILB when you could have stayed put and gotten two each.

Well, here's the big falacy of this: Roster positions and Playing time. If we took our standard 7 picks and traded them all down and ended up with 21 lower picks, those 21 new players would never see Roster spots or any significant playing time to see which of the 21 new players turns into a pro-bowl player. Look how long Jericho sat on the pine. Can you imagine if there where 13 Jeroicho's? All waiting for thier shot?

Better to take 2 starters you believe in than 4 maybes.

Bow to TanGini.

 

Sure, when you don't have several holes to fill.

 

This is a complete red herring of an argument. It ignores the fact that NFL football is not a sport where you draft people, plug them in, and then move merrily along.

In the NFL the injury rate is high enough that even very good players often have short, injury-interrupted careers. Of those who stay healthy an enormous percentage (better than 50% of all draftees including the first round) turn out to range from not as good as you expected to downright terrible.

Thinking that you can just pick a few people that your prefer and plug them in is a prescription for long-term pain as your few choices experience the same failure rate as everybody else and you are left thin and grasping at straws. In short, as you become the Redskins.

Having 4 quality prospects (and there were quality prospects at each pick the Jets traded up from) is much better than having 2 people that are maybe 10% more likely to be starting come September.

Darrelle Revis is not Champ Bailey. He's not Quentin Jammer. He's not Aaron Glenn. He's a good quality prospect at QB and taken on the 14 pick straight up would have been a good choice. He was a bad gamble on a trade up that cost the Jets another good prospect.

I'm not even going to get into how asinine it was to trade two picks for a linebacker with a serious injury history who was falling as a result.

The Jets should have come out of this drat originally with 2 fine prospects (25 and 37), 2 good prospects (59 and 89) and 2 other players with a shot (5th and 7th.) Instead they came out with a 29 year old runningback (a quality player, but he's 29 for god's sake), one very good prospect (Revis is not a great can't miss prospect), one good prospect in Harris and two maybes in Bender and Stuckey.

In the process they left the two critical areas on the team, the lines, still short of what they need to be. That in and of itself invalidates the trade for Jones, whose real value is in an offense that is maintaining control while a good defense wins the game, a la Chicago last season.

 

I would not call our current LBs all pro, but they are a solid unit and with a better DL they should be better. There are far more weaknesses on this team than LB. It is a luxury to give away that many picks when we have as many holes as we do. The draft is by far the most efficient means of acquireing new talent and we essentially gave it away.

As I said before. Any GM or scouting team can get good talent in the early part of the draft where it is talent dense. What seperates the men from the boys is getting the good talent after the early picks. To me, giving away this opportunity (especially considering all of our holes) was foolish.

 

Sux:

In the end you may be right about this years draft, but I dont think we're gonna know if the gamble of reducing picks to improve picks in this years draft will be worthwhile. If Revis and Harris become regular, long term quality players I dont think most people are going to complain. It was a gamble, but I think a low risk one. There's probably about a 60% chance that the draft will be a good one despite the lack of picks.

 

Very well said. I'd also like to add if we were after Blalock (which was a consensus favorite before the draft began) Would could have traded down, gotten him and grabbed another pick or two which could have allowed us to take a flier or two on other players, possibly Solai.

The fact is a true NT will do more for our LBs than Harris ever could. We have a problem at NT not only bc DRob is not a natural fit, but also bc he has a HUGE cap number next year that we will not be able to negotiate bc we have NO leverage. Since NT is the catalyst of the 3/4 would it not make sense to bring a guy like Solai in to compete? It is just another example of something we could have done with the flexiblity of more picks.

 

The only thing we can really do here is compare it to last years draft. Last year we had 10 picks and we got 3 starters (so far) in Brick, Mangold, & Washington. Plus we got significant contribution from E. Smith, B. Smith, and D. Coleman. We have not had a chance to see Clemens and Pociask. Schlegel is has been the biggest disappointment so far, but it is still early.

When it is all said and done we will have likely gotten at least 5 starters from this bunch and possibly 6 or 7. Of course not every draft can be this good. But before this draft was ever over we guaranteed ourselves that we would not get near the return of last years draft.

One other note, the pick that we used for T. Jones is from a pick we got for trading down last year. So one could make the arguement that T. Jones is a product of last years efforts.

 

the pick came from last year. but it was a pick to be used this year had we not traded for Jones. so I would count T.Jones as a draft pick. after getting a player with that value for a late 2nd. I think Mangini and Co. felt this was a weak class, so the best thing to do was go and get two players they feel can start day 1. and thats what they did. with the combo of Revis, Harris, and Jones. we essentially have 3 starters through use of draft picks. in the meantime we acquired Bender who is moreso a project. and Stuckey, who if healthy will be the final piece to our recieving corps if smith pans out too.

 

My basic take on the two offseasons we have seen so far from the new regime is that 2006 was nearly brilliant and 2007 has been mundane and maybe harmful thus far.

2006 - Draft gives us 2 full time starters (Mangold and D'Brick) both of whom have the potential to be the best in the game at their respective positions and consistent pro bowlers. It also provides an excellent 2-back system tailback in Washington and a potential starting QB in Clemens and a very interesting safety prospect in Eric Smith. Roleplayers who might turn out to contribute to a winning teams include Brad Smith and Drew Coleman. That's 7 players who could be part of the 2008 Jet's super bowl push if it happens. We used 10 picks to do that, but we created a lot of talent on the roster using them.

Draft grade: A-

2006 - Free agency gives us Dyson, a very good cover corner, to fill a glaring need. We strike out with KVO and break even with Clements and bunch of other roleplayers (Hamilton, RMoore, Chatham, Kassell, Poteat.) The free agent market is used to fill a few holes but not as the main thrust of the offseason renovations, which is as it should be.

Draft grade: B-

2006 - Trades give us an extra 2nd rounder in the 2007 draft (this is where you factor in Thomas Jones, not in 2007) and deprive us of a 4th round pick (Barlow) in the 2007 draft. The trade for Ramsey (giving 6th rounder) is partially offset by the trade of Brooks Bollinger (getting 7th rounder.)

Trades grade: B

Overall grade: B+ (draft gets extra weight because of the number of young and talented players acquired.)

2007 - Draft gives us one very good prospect at a position of need in Revis. It also provides one good prospect at a position that is neither in need or strong in Harris. The 6th and 7th round picks are used for Bender at a position of need and Stuckey at a position that is adequately filled for now. The Jets just did not get enough talent out of this draft to make this anything other than a high stakes gamble with the future of the franchise.

Grade: C- (pending training camp)

2007 - Free agency gives a part-time 3-4 defensive end in Kenyon Coleman, a pass rush specialist from the edge in Bowens, a project at defensive end in 1st round bust Haynes, a fullback working on his 4th team in 4 years in Barnes and a 3rd string QB in Tuiasasopo. Not a single player I just listed is guaranteed to make any impact at all for the Jets in 2007. Not a single player made any kind of impact with their ex-team, which is why they were all easily available in free agency. The Jets said they wanted to fill all of their holes before the draft so they would have free reign during the draft to take the best players available. Filling your holes with has-beens, never-weres and might-be's is fraudulent. The Jets filled no holes before the draft, they just went out and got bodies.

Grade: D (pending training camp, but if anybody thinks there's a Dyson in this group they're fooling themselves.)

2007 - Trades provide a starting tailback (but the price paid is a 2006 acquisition) and give up a lot of depth as the Jets lose a 2nd and 3rd round pick to marginally improve the talent they get on their 1st and 2nd round picks. They also lose position in later rounds by swapping a 5th for a 6th in one of the deals and a 6th for a 7th in the other.

Grade: D (pending training camp, but David Harris and Darelle Revis had better be huge upgrades given what the Jets gave up for them.)

Overall grade so far: D

We had a great season last year because the FO got about 75% of the decisions right and acquired some major impact contributors. This year they're running at about 25% so far and that bodes really poorly for where we'll be at the end of the year versus our expectations.

 

That is a good question who is Salfino?. While he did make some good points, I cannot fathom how the perfomance of these picks is not relevant.

 

Exactly :up: