Interesting viewpoint. I would not put a pss to it. Next step, JD trades down the number one pick this year. Now, imagine this scenario, the deal drags out to draft day. LJ is now saying he will not make a decision till after the draft. How in the hell is that beneficial to GB in any way, shape or form. They lost all chances for a draft pick this year. Arguably LJ is now in play for next year picks. . AR meantime is still a Packer and the leadership of GB looks like a bunch of vindictive buffoons' for a team where there is no owner, but major shareholders ready to boot their collective asses back to the street.
Yes, Zach has shown he's struggled with throwing receivers open, but that hasn't always been the case even in the pros. Certainly it can be a case where a QB just can't read and adjust to the speed of the NFL, but Zach has shown he can do that. His struggles seem to be more rooted in a lack of self-confidence brought on by being forced to play in a system not suited to his strengths, and playing behind a poor OL. And yes, he still has to clean up his footwork which also aggravates things, but that's correctable. I think we'll be able to fairly judge him after he gets to play under a competent OC and (hopefully) improved OL, and after watching a great QB operate up close. If he doesn't dramatically improve after all of that, then yes, he's not likely ever going to get it.
We moved up what, like 40 spots in a draft rich year by trading a guy that was an under achiever, and tape after tape by the experts showed he consistently gave up on his routs. Yet, the very same people that criticized JD draft that year giving Moore a big unknown grade are actually now critiquing the fact that we didn't get enough. In the meantime we picked up a guy to replace Berrios that as the 3-4 option, got more yards than Moore and was second in league in YAC. Second in the damned league coming to a team that will emphasize the run. His speed alone will put defenses on notice. When we are done this year, the new QR corps will be far better than last year. Moore will be soon forgotten. Apparently GB with their top offensive genius HC didn't see the stellar untapped potential on Moore some of you see.
Davis last season I thought played quite well. Much better than Moore. He was banged up a bit and missed games, but he did play in 13 games, averaging 41 ypg and 536 total. That's significantly more than Moore did in 16 games, and per game averages are not even close. Moore had 28 ypg and 436 total. Also he was a much better blocker. Also he didn't ask for a trade. So, to me I would like to keep Davis. He is a good #3 guy, and may even give Lazard a run for his money at #2 if he can stay healthy. And with Moore gone, ideally I would like to get another good guy like OBJ as 4th. Hardman to me is a good #5 guy. Can be used as a receiver occasionally, and a special teams guy. Perfect #5 to activate on the game day. If JD thinks Hardman is solid #4, and Mims is 5, it's not necessarily wrong, but ideally I would like to keep Davis AND add OBJ.
To me Moore had potential still, but was a #4 guy with GW, Lazard, and Davis ahead of him. On top of that he requested a trade when the team was winning, which means I wasn't sure if he will be happy with #4 role and could have requested a trade again. He is in the middle of his rookie deal, and underachieved his draft status. Eye test, stats, PFF ratings (99th rated of 111 WRs) all strongly suggest that he stunk last year. It's possible he could do better this year, but it's also possible he would suck again and request a trade. Since there was an opportunity now to move up from high 3d to a high 2nd round pick where we can draft another solid starter (which Moore wasn't) it was a no brainer.
Couple of things from this thread: -There is a big difference between TL and Zach, and its not comparable. They both struggled year 1 but, A) TL was playing in a dumpster fire and Zach was playing in training wheels, B) TL had no weapons and Zach had several weapons. Their first seasons weren't really the same. In year two their situations even out. TL showed a lot of growth and Zach regressed. There is nothing to suggest Zach is going to be anything more than a backup in this league whose career will likely be over before Darnold's. I only hope JD would be willing to cut bait with Zach as fast as he cut it with Moore. -Moore's blowup was with MLF. MLF's brother coaches GB, so obviously they weren't going to want Moore in a trade. Davis and Lazard are similar player on similar contracts, and the Packers showed no interest in resigning Lazard. Either they had Davis targeted as part of the trade or, more likely, they have no interest in Davis either. -In the 2021 draft we had 5 picks in the first 3 rounds, including 3 in the top 34, and two years later we came away with AVT. -
Yes, Davis and Lazard and similar, but they are also versatile. Lazard played 43% of his career in a slot. Davis can play slot too. We need all 3 of them right now: GW, Davis, and Lazard. That's a solid line-up. Hardman is #4. Ideally I would like OBJ on top of that, but just because Lazard and Davis are similar, does not mean we should not have both. Imagine, two big competent targets at WR for Rodgers to hit in the red zone. It's not a bad thing.
So to me, a HUGE part of it is that Zach just utterly SUCKED at stuff that should be BASIC for an NFL QB. I get that a young QB will struggle learning a complex offensive system, though I’m not really sure how complex our system really was compared to others, but there are certain things that an NFL QB should NOT struggle with. So for example, Zach should be able to complete a damn out pass to the flat and not throw it into the dirt or over the receivers head as often as he did. He shouldn’t throw up bullshit lobs over the middle like he did multiple times vs. NE (though you would think that could be easily coached), and at the end of the day, a QB should be able to throw on target much better than he showed. Is some of it coaching? Is some of it the system? Look, probably yes those have an impact…but he just looked SO lost at the BASIC things. To use your example, Trevor improved SIGNIFICANTLY in his second year…the game slowed down for him, as expected of a highly drafted well rated prospect. Zach didn’t…at all. If anything, he got worse. So while I hear your talk track about the system and the coaching, and I agree it matters, I still think he should have looked MUCH better than he did. If we’re talking about how we traded away Moore as a comparison, I’d look at it like we have a young player who had some fundamental flaws in giving up on routes for example, and we gave up on the player and traded him away…he has physical skills and potential, but the production was not great, despite “the system” or perhaps being miscast in his role on the outside as opposed to more slot work, but regardless…we had physical skills but lower than expected production (and I’d argue that Zach sucked more at being a QB than Moore did at being a WR), and we gave up on him…part of that may be due to his attitude or the fact that someone actually wanted to trade for him, and yet with Zach, we saw much worse production (those flashes you speak of were extremely FEW and FAR BETWEEN…he never even had one great game…not a single one!), and yet we’re not yet giving up and we’re keeping him (though how much of that is that no one would trade anything for him is hard to know). Anyway…my two cents…he’s been shit poor, I get tired of the narratives we used to hear about how he improved, I get tired of the narrative that “stats don’t tell the story”, I get tired of the narrative that he was in the wrong system, or he had the wrong coaching, etc. It’s all well and good, and has some value, but I’d counter with something like “a great player is going to be pretty damn great regardless of the system”…because the natural skillset and abilities would power through…may not reach their full potential, but they wouldn’t outright suck to the point of being the worst in the league. For example, I don’t care what system you put a Joe Montana in…he wouldn’t suck…he may not achieve hall of fame status like he did, but he wouldn’t suck. Not for 2 years. So that’s kind of how I see it
Yes. I hope Davis stays. He would be a great depth fit in the WR room for this dare I say...Super Bowl run w/Rodgers.
They are absolutely comparable, even if their circumstances weren't identical. To respond to your assertions: A) Lawrence was playing in a dumpster fire. And Zach wasn't? The OL was a mess to start the season. It finally improved a bit but it was mediocre at best and when Zach returned after his injury several of the OL got hurt and returned the OL to a mess. He was also missing most the starting skill players. Despite that, Zach finished the year on an up note and began looking like an NFL QB to the extent where most people were looking forward to this past season as his break out year. B) While Lawrence benefitted by getting a whole new CS, including an offensive minded HC who set about designing the offense around TL's skill set, Zach once again had to try and adapt to MLF's system and his very questionable playcalling. Also, Zach again got hurt in T.C. and missed most of that and all of the P.S. games. When he returned he led the team to a 5-1 record including the come from behind win in Pittsburgh, a thrashing of Miama at home, and wins on the road in GB and Denver, and after the "Roughing the Passer" game in NE where he was playing well up until that point and then fell apart, bounced back and beat Buffalo at home. After the second NE game was when the "Mike F'n White" tshirts surfaced and it was obvious that MLF (and probably Saleh) gave up on Zach, and the whole QB situation became a "dumpster fire" to use your term. The fact that you choose to see that Lawrence showed a lot of growth, while claiming that "There is nothing to suggest Zach is going to be anything more than a backup in this league whose career will likely be over before Darnold's", just shows that you don't want to see any growth or potential in Zach. It's stunning how anti-Wilson posters can ignore the impact of good coaching in Lawrence's case and bad coaching in Wilson's case, and then declare that "Zach sucks and will never be anything more than a backup". I realize none of this will change your mind, but I can't let the assertions based on partial or out of context information go unchallenged. IDK if Zach will succeed, but I do know that he hasn't been handled correctly, and has had to deal with a lot of problems with the OL and skill position availability, on top of being asked to play in a system not tailored to his strengths, which is crazy considering they made him the #2 pick and anointed him the FQB from the start. You couldn't screw up a young QB's development worse if you tried.
Trying to compare Zach to TL is folly. Lawrence was undoubtedly and universally regarded as one of the best qb prospects in a decade, Zach hoodwinked people with one season against garbage competition and a pro day. It is stunning to think how anyone can think he can be an average starter in this league. There is a higher probability that he never even sees a second contract.
I'm not comparing Zach to TL, I'm comparing their circumstances and how a big change in TL's led to his resurrection, while Zach enjoyed no such change in circumstances. And remind me again, how many QB's have you successfully analyzed, and just what your credentials are? What's "stunning" is how many posters think their opinion counts for more than even professionals. It may be that you're right about Zach, and I'm wrong, but I'd hardly call it "stunning" if I was mistaken - it's not like I am a paid, experienced professional, but even they get things wrong a fair amount of times.
How are you still dying on this hill and derailing threads over it dude? He fucking sucks. The entire league knows it. The Jets entire organization knows it. If he turns into a good player it’ll be a miraculous turnaround and he has a much better chance at being on Good Morning America than he does being a good NFL QB. Give it up. The coaches or situation or any extraneous factor didn’t make him the worst QB in the NFL.
It does seem kind of curious that the Jets have figured a foolproof method of drafting the worst QB in the league every time they select QB.
I'm not the one who brought ZW into this. EDIT: Actually I was the one to first mention Zach, but only to point out the inconsistency of people excusing Moore's performance for much of the same reasons they crucify Zach over. That's all my initial comments was about. It wasn't until the piling on from the Zach Haters that I felt I had to respond in kind. But why does it bother you so much that I'm expressing my opinion. At least I stick to talking about players and football and don't create a lengthy personal flame war. The rest of what you said is simply your opinion.
