That's where I think you're wrong. These 3 games hold as much weight as the other ones. They dont overshadow anything- it is what it is. Being extraordinarily bad in 3 doesnt mean the other 12 were better than they actually were. Everything tends to even out. As we can see by Sanchez's completion percentage...which has remained steady throughout his career.
I don't get crazy. I just like to bust your fanboy chops.....just like you like to bust chops. If not you, then a number of the Markettes here on this board confuse not worshipping 24/7 at the Nacho altar as being a "hater." Have you ever laid blame at Sanchez' feet? Sure. BUT, at the same time, you've gone Johnny Cochran on his behalf on many other occassions when he didn't deserve it. I mean spin-doctoring Nacho pitching a shutout during his "great" 2010 season in an 0-9 loss to the Pack (at home) by blaming Mother Nature was one of your better gems-lol. enjoy the weekend, i'm out ;-)
why would 3 hold as much weight as 12 others? if the 3 were in postseason I'd agree. I deal w/ reality, I try to be as fair as possible. I never said he played well against GB but that was a very windy day which affected both offenses and 2 BS INTs cost us any chance to win. Other factors have to be mentioned, it's not always black and white. and try not to mention feet on a Jets board:grin:
You judge a QB based on a combination of individual and team achievements. It's a sliding scale where a QB with weaker individual stats gets cut some slack if his team does well and a QB with better individual stats gets judged more harshly if the team does not do well. Sanchez 2009 = Cut some slack because he was a rookie and the team went deep in the playoffs despite very poor individual stats. Sanchez 2010 = Cut some slack because he was still young and the team went deep in the playoffs despite a bottom third individual performance from Sanchez. Sanchez 2011 = No slack cut because his individual stats and the team performance were both meh. Sanchez 2012 = Harshly judged because he sucked for much of the year and the team's W-L record directly reflected the sucking. We're going to look back at the Sanchez era in 20 years and wonder how so much controversy could have been created by the performance of a weak QB. Kind of like we look back at the Richard Todd era now except most of the controversy back then was on the back pages and in the stands because the average fan had no outlet to express their displeasure.
Judging a QB should come down to athletic ability. Not accomplishments. I mean, the same can be said about all positions. Not a lot of people will consider Vernon Davis as the best tight end because of his #'s. But I consider him the best based on his athletic ability. /thread
This is a response to the above and to the one post you speculated fans root for fantasy numbers over SBs which is laughable. Now if you expanded and said fans believe being a great fantasy QB can lead to winning the SB, you would have had a better idea, but you didn't mention that so I can only go off of what you wrote. QBs who have helped their team reach the playoffs more than Sanchez since 2009: Aaron Rodgers, top 5 QB. Tom Brady, top 5 QB. Drew Brees, top 5 QB. Peyton Manning, top 5 QB. Matt Ryan, top 10 QB. Joe Flacco, top 15 QB. There's the list. Now I can't find scoring leaders in fantasy football per year except for last year, so here's last year QB scoring leaders: #1 Brees, #2 Rodgers, #3 Brady, #5 Manning, #7 Ryan, #14 Flacco. Hmm maybe it's just a coincidence that 5/6 QBs were top 10 fantasy players and 4/6 were top 5 fantasy players. 2013 preseason fantasy QB ranking (since 2013 ranking is based off of 2012): Rodgers #1, Brees #2, Manning #3, Brady #4, Ryan #6, Flacco #15 2012 preseason: Rodgers #1, Brady #2, Brees #3, Manning #9 (off injury), Ryan #11, Flacco #19 2011 preseason: Rodgers #1, Brees #3, Brady #4, Ryan #10, Flacco #12, Manning N/A 2010 preseason: Brees #1, Rodgers #2, Manning #3, Brady #4, Flacco #9, Ryan #14 So if take a look, all 4 years, 4/6 QBs fall within the top 10 including the year we only had 5 eligible QBs. That means, well look at that, the top QBs that consistently made the playoffs more than Sanchez, fell within the top 10 list of fantasy QBs. Now while this list isn't perfect, you are never going to find a perfect stat. But would you imagine, a combination of yards, touchdowns, comp %, lack of INTs/fumble combined into some weighted formula ends having the top QBs near the top of the list. That's the way it goes. So that's why fans root for their QB to be a top QB in the league, they just happen to be the top fantasy QBs also. It's also much easier to root for your QB to be like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc consistently leading your team to the playoffs. The fan's goal is to see their team win the SB. To win the SB you need to make the playoffs. To consistently make the playoffs, most of the time you need a great QB. It's easy to root for your QB to be great. That's why QBs like Rivers, Eli, Romo just don't make the playoffs as consistently as Brees, Rodgers, etc. Now you say, but Eli has 2 SBs and Brees and Rodgers combined have 1! Yes, not everything is perfect, teams can get hot and win the SB. But how as a fan do you root for that before the season? Let's hope our QB plays ok flopping between great and bad and we sneak into the playoffs and then get hot and win the SB? How do you root for that? So lots of fans root for their QB to be top in the league. A top QB in the league also leads in fantasy stats, that's what happens. There are ways to make the playoffs without a consistently top QB, but going into the season, how do you root or even imagine that? You root to make the playoffs, and then hope for the best. The top QBs each year make the playoffs. The top QBs happen to make the playoffs. They also lead the league in fantasy. Look at last year. We are going to list the top 16 QBs (32 in the league) by ESPNs standard scoring. Now this can be flawed, since QBs who missed games will have less games to score points, but that can be addressed at the end. Top 16 fantasy QBs in 2012-2013: Brees Brady Rodgers Newton P. Manning Griffin III Ryan Romo Luck Stafford Wilson Dalton Freeman Flacco E. Manning Bradford So 9/12 playoff QBs were above average fantasy QBs. We can't include Colin Kap in this study because he didn't play the whole season. Colin however scored 164 points in 7 games started. That comes out to a little above 23 ppg. Brady, #2 on the list, scored right around 21 ppg. So maybe Colin makes the top 16, maybe he doesn't, we can't speculate with less than half a season to work, just interesting to note. So 9/11 top fantasy QBs were playoff QBs. THe 2 playoff QBs not in the top 16, Christian Ponder and Matt Schaubb. I would say that's pretty accurate. Let's see what football outsiders had to say: 9/12 top 16 QBs made the playoffs if you include Kap and take off Alex Smith from the top 16 bumping Flacco into the 16. Let's see what passer rating has to say: 9/11 top 16 Qbs made the playoffs as the list does not include Kap. So yeah, I mean, the top QBs consistently make the playoffs. By consistently making the playoffs, you have more chances to win the Super Bowl. Fans want their QB to play like a top QB in the league, because more often than not, the top QBs make the playoffs. It just so happens the top QBs also are great fantasy Qbs too. If you are too lazy to read, just read the bold above.
Using NFL.com's Fantasy scoring system, the following lists the top 12 Fantasy Qbs, each season, from 2009/10--2012/13: ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2012 1. Drew Brees (345.58) 2. Aaron Rodgers (343.6) 3. Tom Brady (340.28) 4. Cam Newton (323.46) 5. RG3 (317.5) 6. Peyton Manning (310.96) 7. Matt Ryan (304.86) 8. Tony Romo (278.92) 9. Andrew Luck (276.46) 10. Matt Stafford (275.58) 11. Russell Wilson (275.62) 12. Andy Dalton (250.76) Of the top 12 Fantasy Qbs, 8 made the Playoffs, or 66% The average Total Points of all Qbs was 234.70 Mark Sanchez Total Points 118.12 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2011 1. Aaron Rodgers (397.42) 2. Drew Brees (391.64) 3. Cam Newton (369.34) 4. Tom Brady (366.3) 5. Matt Stafford (343.32) 6. Eli Manning (280.82) 7. Tony Romo (275.96) 8. Matt Ryan (273.48) 9. Philip Rivers (254.46) 10. Mark Sanchez (237.26) 11. Ryan Fitzpatrick (222.78) 12. Michael Vick (233.02) Of the top 12 Fantasy Qbs, 6 made the Playoffs, or 50% The average Total Points of all Qbs was 214.88. Mark Sanchez Total Points 237.26 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2010 1. Michael Vick (310.32) 2. Aaron Rodgers (304.48) 3. Tom Brady (299) 4. Peyton Manning (285.8) 5. Philip Rivers (281.6) 6. Drew Brees (269.2) 7. Josh Freeman (258.44) 8. Matt Ryan (252.4) 9. Matt Schaub (245.6) 10. Joe Flacco (231.28) 11. Eli Manning (231.08) 12. Matt Cassel (229.14) Of the top 12 Fantasy Qbs, 8 made the Playoffs, or 66% The average Total Points of all Qbs was 194.58 Mark Sanchez Total Points 202.14 *made Playoffs ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2009 1. Aaron Rodgers (341.76) 2. Brett Favre (328) 3. Drew Brees (292.42) 4. Matt Schaub (280.9) 5. Peyton Manning (278.7) 6. Tony Romo (273.82) 7. Tom Brady (270.32) 8. Philip Rivers (269.16) 9. Big Ben (267.02) 10. Kurt Warner (263.65) 11. Donovan McNabb (245.65) 12. Eli Manning (231.34) Of the top 12 Fantasy Qbs, 9 made the Playoffs, or 75% The average Total Points of all Qbs was 197.36 Mark Sanchez Total Points 132.36 *made Playoffs ----------------------------------------------------------------- To say that “Fantasy stats are meaningless” (regarding the Qb) is wrong. There appears to be a strong correlation between Fantasy production by the Qb and team success (i.e. Playoff appearances). This makes sense because Fantasy production is based on real, game stats; and better stats usually correlates with more success. Based on statistical analysis, we can conclude with 95% confidence that the average Qb produces fewer Fantasy points than a Playoff caliber Qb produces. When comparing the mean Fantasy points of a Playoff Qb with that of an average Qb, the result is -7.737, showing a difference of statistical significance. In other words, the average Qb is over 7 standard deviations below the average Playoff Qb. Had the test statistic been larger than -1.96(z-score established by the 95% confidence level), then the difference would have been inconclusive. In Mark Sanchez’s four years as the Jets Qb, he has made the Playoffs twice and missed the Playoffs twice. Of the two years Sanchez made the Playoffs, he was below the league average Fantasy Qb production (197.36) with a total of 132.36 in 2009, and he was above the league average (194.58) with a total of 202.14 in 2010. Of the two years Sanchez missed the Playoffs, he was above the league average Fantasy Qb production (214.88) with a total of 237.26 in 2011, and he was below the league average (234.70) with a total of 118.12 in 2012. There is a huge difference in the Fantasy production between Playoff Qbs and average Qbs. Playoff Qbs produce more. For teams to make the Playoffs, Qbs usually must post strong production because this correlates with wins. Despite Mark Sanchez having shined sporadically in Playoff moments, his lack of production outweighs those moments -- lack of production, which is a large contributor to the team’s lack of success, i.e. not making the Playoffs.
Sanchez has two glaring weaknesses: 1) He's a one read quarterback - He has no ability to drop back, scan a defense and asses the best play. Every throw he makes is off the first read. Even when he does his ridiculous pump fakes, it's just a distraction to come back to his initial read even if that player is covered. He never goes through his progessions. 2) He does not pass beyond 20 yards. Aside from the long bombs he throws with the ball way ahead of the receiver (so it's mostly for show), he never attempts deep passes. He has no deep ball accuracy and no ability to go to say, a 4 th option on a post-corner route (to give an example of a long developing play downfield). With these 2 issues he can never be a good starting Qb. And at present he's not even at the "solid" level. 13TDs vs 20+ turnovers in 15 games is beyond abysmal. He's just not a starting caliber NFL quarterback.
2012? Really? A non oc oc, and more injuries than a Queens trauma ward on a Friday night? And...in 2011, he scored 32 times. Someone stops Teblow, the Jests go 9-7.
He only hit 4 for more than 20, Friday. And he goes down, and long outside well. Besides fumbling, his weakness is, he doesnt drill the ball. He can, but he tries to throw a catchable ball,(read the college scouting reports) in the NFzl you have to screw the pass catchers, and drill every throw.
I am not talking about his pre-season performance. I am talking about real games. He cannot read a defense. His completion percentage last year was 54.8%. That is pathetic. Since 2009, he has the second most turnovers in the NFL. And then there's this nugget: Pro Football Focus calculates that this year, Sanchez has the league's 29th-best accuracy percentage—a version of completion percentage, adjusted for drops, throwaways, spikes, batted passes, and the like—with only 66.9 percent of his throws on target 66.9% actually on target? Again, pathetic. His turnovers also happen to be of the killer variety. Numerous pick 6s, his five turnover game against the titans (with THREE in the 4th quarter) and of course Thanksgiving. He is not a starting caliber NFL QB by any stretch. I will never understand why he even warrants any respect from fans or media. Perfect example, the "Jets West" controversy with Geno. Why on Earth does it matter of Geno attends the camp of the WORST starter in the league?? Does Brooks Bollinger hold a camp? Does Dan Orlovsky hold camps? Sanchez is no different. Just a scrub who will be a career backup/waiver fodder once this season is over.
Yours was a great post too! I like looking up QB stuff because it usually isn't what people expect. Like a lot of people like to point out Schaubb is a "fantasy" QB but he is a bad fantasy QB. You wouldn't be excited if you got him in a draft, that means you missed out the QBs you really wanted. Or Tony Romo is a fun example. He's not clutch and only makes his team lose! except for the fact he was one of the most effective QBs in the 4th quarter last year. Sanchez is a fun one too. His rookie year is overrated because of the team's success. His 2011 is underrated because of his team's lack of success and how he ended the year (poorly). Flacco vs Matt Ryan is a fun discussion too. Flacco's teams have the better playoff success, Ryan's teams have barely edged out Flacco's teams for regular season success, but in my eyes Matt Ryan is a better QB. The Falcons interestingly enough have lost to the NFC rep for the SB every year they lost in the playoffs in Ryan. If we talk Ryan, Russell Wilson is immediately looped in after last year's playoffs. The kid's team was down 27-7, the Seahawks went TD, force 3 and out, TD, force 3 and out, FG to take lead with 34 seconds, defense lets up 41 yards on two passes in 10 seconds let up game winning FG to ATL. How do you negatively mark either QB for that game? I think you can look at fantasy points as an extension of passer rating or QBR. It tries to take a QBs overall play and turn it into a tangible number that you can use to judge against other QBs. It's not an end all or be all, but it's another tool to help double check what your eyes see on the field. To wrap up back to the original question, I start with how the QB plays the QB position then from there judge the other factors like the team around them. I usually don't lean on wins, division winners, etc because there's too much team in that rather than QB. Now there is high correlation between having a great QB and making the playoffs, but using wins like this QB led his team to 13 wins this year and the division, this one 11 and the WC, I don't think that's a fair way to judge the QBs on the team. It would hold more weight in my mind if they were in the same division, because the schedule would be neatly lined up. But yeah I enjoy looking up QB stuff and things like this. It's a lot more interesting when they go against what you expected. I actually didn't think there would be a high % of playoff QBs in the top fantasy QBs, but there are. You figure Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees at worse give you 3 top fantasy QBs in the playoffs, but I just didn't know where Romo, Rivers, Eli, Big Ben, Vick, Cam, etc would fall within it. Looks like since fantasy rating is just another way to assess game stats to a point total, it does a better than expected job in my eyes
Mathew Stafford helped a crappy team get a 10-6 record. Tim Tebow had a defense and running game that masked his performance. Winning games is bull when your defense can't do anything. Look at Drew Brees from last year. He had the worse defense in NFL history, you can't blame Drew Brees for those losses when he was literally the team. You put a good passer on that Broncos team, and they would have still won games. You put Tebow on the lions, they would have been terrible. Wins and loses are team achievements. Statistics are player achievements.
Hobbes again I feel compelled to ask you...Who exactly is it that keeps crowing about Sam Bradford having a career year under Schotty? Because I feel like you are the only one who is bringing that up Name names or stop saying it
QBs that can run like RGIII help the run game tremendously. Defensive lineman can't just shoot gaps. They need to anchor and contain. I'd take the Jets 2009 o-line and defense over a 6th round rookie rb any day. No doubt Sanchez had the better team around him.
That last play of half was ridiculous and sums up Sanchez perfectly, STUPID, as starting QB you have to know how much time is on the clock, they had time for one pass and if they didn't score kick a field goal,, instead Sanchez runs around for too long, throws a crap pass, wasted the time on the clock and they come away with nothing,,, This is his 5th year in the league, He shouldn't be making rookie mistakes.
