I don't seem to admit that, I do admit that. I've never once stated that there is no need. I was saying that the need has been overstated. Which it has. You should have picked up that not so subtle subtlety by reading my post in which I clearly explained what I meant. I probably don't address Thomas' absurd contract in 2012 because Thomas isn't under contract in 2012. I would imagine he'll be resigned in a backup capacity at that point and we'll likely draft an OLB to take his place or address the issue with a higher profile player when we don't have so many pressing concerns on the FA front. Pace will need to be restructured. You can't cut Pace, not even after this season. There's far too much dead money even next season. He'll be restructured. Like I said, Thomas will likely be re-signed at a cheaper price and the position will be addressed. As I said, I don't think the team sits pat at the position going into the season. I'm sure we'll acquire an OLB. I just can't see the FO letting multiple FAs go unsigned in order to throw money at an incredibly high priced position with a top heavy market. We'll likely sign a cheaper OLB. If he's a situational pass rusher, all the better for this season. If it's Lawson, see my thoughts below. I do have to laugh at the "release both and have nothing" idea, given that, again, Thomas can't really be released from a contract he doesn't have, Pace can't be released from a contract with that much dead money, and Tanny isn't some moron who would allow the team to go into the season without investing in other options. No, I would never ever like to see what the defense would look like with a dominant pass rusher. Who in the world would ever want to see that? /sarcasm Obviously, we'd all love to see a stud OLB. We were all clamoring for one in the draft, but the value never fell to us. The team stayed true to its board, and now we're in a situation in which we bolster the position slightly and try to secure the future of our team at other positions, or we throw tons of money (and picks) to acquire a player from another team and sign him to a new contract. The problem I have with the latter is that our system and personnel got us to the AFC Championship two years in a row with injuries and problems along the defensive line. We used our first two picks to solidify and beef up that line, and the effect of that is going to be felt throughout the defense. Pace will be much more free than he has in his career with us thus far. We have a chance at an interior pass rush, or at the very least pressure from collapsed pockets, unlike in Jenkins' injury shortened seasons. The system will improve, our OLBs will likely be more productive, and we'll pick up someone else who fits into the system without breaking the bank. I'd much rather retain the guys who have made our team what it is than try to reshape one position at the expense of others. What about it? I've said over and over again that someone would be brought in. It's just not going to be the trio or Avril. Of course it would be an upgrade to get younger, but if he plays the way he played in SF, we'd see people making the exact same complaints. He's certainly an option, and I wouldn't mind having him. I would just temper expectations if he does head to New York. Better to be pleasantly surprised if he finally puts things together than disappointed by his perceived lack of playing to potential.
This is just retarded. How in the world do you figure that the Jets would be better offensively without Holmes?
A couple of my thoughts...... 1.) I would not expect Wilkerson and Ellis to come in here and make a huge difference. It is going to take some time for them. I hope I am wrong but for a long stretch the front 7 are going to be more of the same as the Jets had last year. If you guys are expecting them to even play enough, collapse pockets and let all hell break loose, I think you are going to be disappointed. Again I hope I am wrong. 2.) Trusnik- Sign this beast. He would be a great addition for special teams. Westhoff loves the guy. As far as being a starter, no thank you. All he is, is a better option than Laury. He was a great on special teams. 3.) In regards to the draft, I think people shouldn't read anything into the Jets not picking an OLB. I am pretty sure they went purely by the ratings of their board except the last pick. I have read that Rex was really lobbying for Reed but the scouts had him rated a half of a round lower than Wilkerson. I will try and find the article. 4.) As big a need as I think OLB is, I don't think at this point the Jets can really spend that much and make a big splash. The Jets have a ton tied up in their LB's already and they franchised Harris, which means even more $$$. So it remains to be seen what the Jets can do within affordable means to shore up their pass rush/OLB's.
Not expecting the moon in year one, but I do think they'll do enough in rotation to help generate more of a pass rush than we've seen. Again, there's room between those two grounds. Yep. Like I said, we all wanted a pass rusher, but the value obviously didn't match up. Thank you! We need to sign players at OLB, but it's not enough of a need to sacrifice The core we have in place. Well said, Puck.
I wish the Jets could get a pass rusher...but in reality, i dont see it happening- i think our starting Lb's are going to be the same as last year. For those who wouldn't trade a 1st and 3rd for Hali or Woodley, I say why the hell not? Say we are picking between 24-32, a top pass rusher isn't falling to us, just like this year. If we traded a 1st and a 3rd for a pro bowl caliber pass rusher I think that would be amazing. But on the otherside, the reality of the steelers or the chiefs ever doing this is almost impossible.
I entertained the thought of Carter, he does have vast experience as a OLB in SF, but then again, he's never been a consistent threat in his career.
Here I believe if we have free agency Antwan Barnes DE/OLB (knows Ryan's system) should be a target...
Dude, why the attitude both in this post and the one about the OLB spot? Just because someone sees things differently from you or disagrees with you is no reason to cop an attitude. What is retarded is your attitude and others on this board, who immediately insult other posters when they say something that you don't like. There are a number of reasons I think the Jets would be better off without Holmes. I've already mentioned them in other posts. One, I think the Jets' offense had a better rhythm and Sanchez played better pre-Holmes last year. Once Holmes started playing, Keller became a forgotten man and much of the offense ran through Holmes. The offense seemed to struggle to find its identity. It couldn't make up its mind what it was and they got away from "Ground and Pound." Two, Holmes is simply gonna cost too much money. You say you don't want to lose players who helped get the Jets where they are in order to bring in a stud OLB, well in keeping Holmes you're going to accomplish the same things. Re-signing him will either prevent the Jets from re-signing Edwards or Cromartie, or a number of other FAs. Three, I think Edwards is a much better overall WR. He blocks, he has a team-first attitude, whereas Holmes as a "me-first" attitude. Edwards presents a better target for Sanchez' high throws, and a better EZ target. Four, Holmes doesn't care one whit about playing for the Jets or for Rex. There are plenty of players who would love to play for the Jets and Rex. I don't like mercenary players who are in it only for the money. Five, Holmes is an odds-on bet to get suspended again soon, and this time it will be for a year. Six, the Jets are supposedly a "Ground and Pound" offensive team. With the drafting of Powell, they seem even more committed to that. With that being the case, Holmes is unnecessary and a luxury, and I believe would again cause the offense to struggle with identity. With Keller, JCo, LT, Conner, Powell, J. McKnight and now Kerley, S. McKnight and possibly Cumberland as well, Sanchez will have plenty of targets. I think keeping Holmes continues to cut down on the number of throws to Keller and Edwards, and will to Kerley as well, and hinders their development. Seven, with the money that it would take to re-sign Holmes, the Jets could keep all the rest of their FAs that they want to keep, and also probably sign a FA S and/or second tier OL to shore up the right side of the OL and/or for insurance in case Hunter or Ducasse struggle, and that could be more important to the team's success than having a demanding, high-maintenance WR who is a luxury in a run-first and often offense.
With regard to Thomas, I guess I was remembering before this past season when Thomas had 2 more seasons at a very high figure. So sue me (or blow me). With Pace, I'm no cap expert, but may disagree about cutting him. Yes, it would be a huge dead money hit, but extending/re-negotiating him is only gonna cost more money and force the Jets to keep him around longer. He's not about to sign some multi-year deal where he'll never see +60% of the money. It's possible that by cutting him they might save a few million over what he would make if he's on the roster. If that's not so, then I guess they will have no choice but to try to re-negotiate and extend him, but I don't think this is in the best interest of the team long term. I really have to laugh at your immature, obnoxious, rude, arrogant behavior. You really need to get over yourself, dude. If you can't respond to my posts in a mature and civil fashion and discuss respectfully, don't bother to respond to my posts, because I won't bother to respond again.
No, your post was retarded. You are wrong. The rest, which is to say the below, is a giant block of shit that nobody wants to read, and focuses primarily on financial and attitude reasons, which I didn't ask for. Furthermore, it bears a striking resemblance to something that Philly Stackz would have dropped, particularly the line in bold.
I'm perfectly respectful with people whose posts merit respect. Yours of late do not. I'm not sure how soliciting an act of fellatio from a married, straight father is supposed to earn you that respect. Cutting Pace in 2012 leaves over 6 million in dead space on the cap, with a "savings" of just 2 million. It would have to be one hell of a cap in order to justify that hit and to have to pay even further to bring in a player who can even replace his production. It amuses me that you're concerned that we can't possibly win without an improvement in linebacker play, and yet you're ready to get rid of both of our OLBs next offseason rather than relegate one to backup duty, saddle the cap with $6 million in dead space, and somehow find a way to sign TWO starters at the position. Good stuff. I'm sure that wouldn't hurt the team in the slightest at other positions.
Thankfully, IJR responded to the holmes line so I won't have too... Who is the worst player of these four, Bryan Thomas, Antonio Cromartie, Santonio Holmes, Braylon Edwards. I'll give you a hint, its Bryan Thomas. If the choice is keep our big three intact and cutting thomas, you do it without even thinking. BT is an average player, hell he barely makes it above JAG status if he even does that. You keep the best players, and figure out how to fill the holes. It's almost a guarantee we can bring in a younger version of BT in FA for much cheaper. Some names previously mentioned, Connor Barwin, Manny Lawson, Marcus Bernard and several others right in this thread would be perfect replacements for BT and all would likely be cheaper than BT's current deal which is starting to hit it's backload in the next year or two. Back to Avril... You think he has played standing up? Are you serious, you are going to counter my argument of him not playing standing up with you think he has? Passes defensed is you belief? Does this make sense, passes batted down at the line. It's still a defensed pass, thats your answer for the 8 of those to his name. Kudos to Avril for getting his hands on the ball, but lets not pretend Detroit drops him off the line in there 4-3 allignment so he can cover TE's running down field... Because he has proven he can rush with his hand in the dirt, he therefore is a shoo-in rusher from standing up? Ok good to know. somebody go tell Gholston that being a proven rusher with your hand in the dirt (OSU single season sack record from the DE position) automatically means greatness from a rush OLB... It takes time to make the transition, and this is not the year to try and convert a proven 4-3 end if you don't have to. Like I said, its absolutely worth the risk if all we are paying is money, but a 1 and a 3 is an excessive amount of draft picks for a guy who may not be able to play standing up... You then claim Avril couldnt be a worse player than Thomas or Pace, yet you claim keeping BT is a necessity because we can't find anybody who could play his spot out there... Yet you conceed a guy who has never played standing up and has never had to really cover in his life, can do just as well. Good to know. Lastly on Woodley and Hali, actually I bet you are wrong. Nobody is going to be stupid enough to offer that much for either player because they are NOT worth it. Trust me, if any team in the NFL (probably other than us since pitt learned why giving us a big time weapon is such a bad idea last year, and Baltimore) called up and said we want Woodley, we'll give you a 1 and a 3. It's a done deal. they have a guy ready to step in, in Worilds, and they have harrison opposite him. KC would probably be less likely since they have no help this year since the draft is over, but if we had tried to make that deal prior to the draft, they probably would have pounced.... Unrealistic though? Seriously? You are talking about signing a guy to an offer sheet that would require us to throw away tons and tons of money and 2 high draft picks next year, all while throwing in a dreaded poison pill to make sure Detroit can't match. Not exactly the most realistic idea... BTW, regardless of your lovely idea of the poison pill its a terrible practice only to be used in the most drastic of scenarios. It burns bridges of the team you are trying to take the player from for not even allowing them to try to sign back their guy. Teams around the league take note, and are less likely to want to make deals with a guy they feel conducts backhanded deals. We want Tanny to continue to be Trader Mike, we don't want him handicapped by pissing off everyone in the league for throwing poison pills in every contract we attempt to sign. In order to take that risk you absolutely have to say, we can not live without this guy, if we don't get him our team is going to collapse. Either that or you have to believe the guy has future HOF writen all over him, aka Curtis Martin. I don't know that we can say either about Cliff Avril
Whatever. Even though we've had some civil, respectful discussions in the past, I see you now have the same sarcastic, rude. disrespectful attitude as IJR, and you have twisted my words and misconstrued what I said, so you can forget about responding to any more of my posts because I won't respond. Life is too short to waste my time reading or responding to rude, immature, arrogant guys like you two.
I agree with just about every word in this post. Thumbs up. I didn't even notice his point about Avril standing up because of PDs, and great point about the poison pill. There's a reason why it's only been used twice in the last decade, and the second was a retaliation move for the first. Seattle and Minnesota are the cautionary tale of the league for their dealings in Hutchinson/Burleson (and the Burleson part never ceases to amuse me). The one part that I'm a bit uncertain about is cutting Thomas. Obviously, a replacement would have to be secured first. I mentioned Lawson as a Bryan Thomas clone thus far in his career, and I stand by that. His age would make him an appealing replacement, as well as his upside, but he'd have to come at a similar number, and I'm still concerned he wants to head to a 4-3 team. Still, he's a possibility. I just don't see much hope for us grabbing an established pass rusher this offseason, especially since the team seems committed to paying David Harris (I mentioned prior to the application of the franchise tag that I'd gladly part with Harris for a top OLB) and I don't think the need is great enough to drop that kind of money right now, let alone the picks.
Well thanks. On thomas, I don't think it will happen, but i am so tired of the guy underacheiving, expecially when he should have been Ed Reed it just drives me nuts. Like I said if cutting him means keeping the other 3 you do it without even thinking about it. Thomas is a JAG, you do not keep a JAG for somebody who is an elite player at their position, or in the case of cromartie, keeping the best tandem of CBs in the NFL together. I agree we don't have a shot at a rusher this offseason either, there just isn't anyone available.
we have had civil discussions in the past, and we could in the future. But when people irritate and insult me and my intelligence I get irritated. When you told me that what I know is wrong, entirely because you think something without looking into anything, I get irritated. but like you said, whatever.
Think the dynasty run by the Patriots of early 2000s. Did they have that 'stud' OLB to rush the passer? They had smart, play-making LB corps - that you must admit - but did they have LT caliber of a beast outside? They never had that. Instead, most of the pass rush was achieved by Seymour - Wilfork tandem, barring the first SB run. Will the cactus be replaced? I sure hope to hell he does get replaced, but the bigger problem was with the DL (who would constantly produce a gigantic clusterfuck whenever we rushed) than with the OLB. Now that the DL has been addressed (for now. It remains to be seen whether they are what we drafted them to be), we should see some improvement in the pass rush even without adding any talent at OLB. If we can add that stud OLB, that much better - but don't expect that to happen this year.
Logically let's look at what we have..... Defensive Line: Shaun Ellis needs to be resigned for a couple years... Marcus Dixon can be something; needs to show up consistently.... Ropati Pitoitua coming off a serious injury, has everything to prove... Jarron Gilbert a bright spot, at least a solid rotation player... Sione Pouha blue collar player that can be a starter... Matt Kroul has potential, and has Rex Ryan's stamp of approval... Mike Devito another blue collar player that should be a starter... Add into our two draft picks: Muhammad Wilkerson probably will be Bull-Rush End or DT/RE for us solid starter for years to come... Kenrick Ellis has potential of being one of the greats at the NT position, as long as no jail time... IF we can sustain a pass rush and occupy those 5 O-Lineman with any sequence of those players ^^^^ above then any Linebacker that we have or we sign can be a stud... Just takes the right mixture of players, which Rex Ryan and staff have been trying to sort out since he took the golden chair job with us... **Remember Rex Ryan doesn't believe that just b/c they are potential #1 round draft picks that he can not find that diamond in the rough from UDFA... Case in point.... Rex Ryan's Right hand enforcer Bart Scott...
