The short answer is that Favre was a 3-time league MVP and played in two Super Bowls and did so with lesser teammates than Starr. I can make an argument that Starr was better than Favre, but I understand why the panelists found for Favre. A note on them- some are true league historians but others are guys like Rich Eisen. Eisen voted for Michael Irvin because he works with him. Now, I'm not suggesting that was the sole reason he voted for Irvin. It's likely that Eisen used it as a tiebreaker. "Hmm. Largent or Irvin? I'll go with Irvin 'cause I work with him."
Maybe, but your argument for Starr is stronger in my opinion. 5 championships, one MVP. I never saw him play, and I've seen far too much of Favre. No way BF comes in 30 or 40 places ahead. I just refuse to accept it. Starr wasn't a league wide embarassment by the time he retired. You think the league will ever sanction a "Brett Favre Award?"
No to any Brett Favre Award. Favre was more dynamic than Starr and I think that plays into this in a major way. Starr compares very well to Bob Griese. They played for run-heavy teams and were the ultimate game managers. Favre, on the other hand, put up huge passing numbers relative to his contemporaries in seasons where his team achieved great success. Starr had great rate stats (completion pct, YPA, passer rating) but did not put up gaudy yardage and touchdown totals. Right or wrong, many people get swayed more by yardage and TDs than the other numbers.
LT should be in the top ten, he changed the way defenses and offenses played, Joe Gibbs came up with the 2 tight end formation just to control him, no matter what kind of life he lived off the football field, he is one of the few players that changed the game.
You are absolutely correct. I have no major issues with the top 10. I would have put Baugh in the top 10 instead of Peyton Manning. Baugh did come in at 14, though, so it is not like the panel made an egregious error. Reggie White, Taylor, and Dick Butkus being considered the top 3 defensive players is very fair, in my opinion. I applaud the panels' decision to put both Jim Brown and Walter Payton in the top 10. I believe Payton was the best all-around back (running, receiving, pass blocking) and Brown was the best pure runner. Jerry Rice and Don Hutson were the two most dominant wide receivers and held all sorts of records when they each retired.
Favre ahead of Elway, Marino, and Brady? The guy was good for many years, he was only great for 3. And when he won (just once), it was just as much about defense and special teams (4 ints and a kick return that put the gage away). Elway and Marino were consistently great and had lesser receivers and RBs most years than Favre did in GB.
The difference between good and great can be difficult to define. I assume you believe his great years were 1995-97. He did have another three or four years that compare well statistically to his three MVP seasons. Therefore, to be fair, I think you'd have to say that Favre had six or seven great seasons and then some good seasons and a few ho-hum years. All four QBs were bunched together (Favre 20, Brady 21, Elway 23, Marino 25) and I think that is okay. I think Elway was the best football player of the group. I suppose I'd rank them Elway 1, Brady 2, Marino 3, and Favre 4, but it is very close between Marino and Favre.
My friends and I often talk about the best football players weve seen at certain positions. Now, I'm only 33 years old. In my opinion, John Elway is the most talented quarterback I've ever watched play the game. Dan Marino was definitely better than Favre. Favre may be the toughest quarterback ever, but he is definitely over rated. To have him where they have him on this list is just ridiculous.
I hate to say this but the best QB (pure passer) I have ever seen play was Marino. The best athlete of the bunch is Elway. I think both are a tad better QB's, than Brady. However, Brady is in a perfect system for his skill set and he is just a winner, so that puts him ahead of Marino on the list. Favre should not be anywhere near those 3 in my opinion.
Favre will probably get ranked ahead of Staubach, maybe ahead of Luckman as well. Marino will get ranked too high as always. My top 10 would include: Otto Graham QB Lawrence Taylor OLB Jim Brown RB Don Hutson WR Jerry Rice WR Bob Lilly DT Mean Joe Green DT Dick Butkis MLB Joe Montana QB Johnny Unitas QB
? 90 players were already ranked. We are down to the top 10 now. It turns out that I was right when I wrote that Favre will not make the top 10. I guaranteed he'd be ranked behind Baugh, Graham, Unitas, and Montana. I got that right, too. I wrote that he could be ranked behind Staubach, Elway, Marino, and Luckman. Well, he got ranked higher than all of them. I wrote it was possible he would not make the top 20. He came in at 20. So, I did pretty good there with the Favre stuff.
Montana was a better passer than Marino ever was. Clutch player and four time SB winner as well. His Superbowl stats are incredible: Super Bowls Comp Att Pct Yards TDs INTs Rate Result XVI 14 22 63.6 157 1 0 100.0 W 26-21 XIX 24 35 68.6 331 3 0 127.2 W 38-16 XXIII 23 36 63.9 357 2 0 115.2 W 20-16 XXIV 22 29 75.9 297 5 0 147.6 W 55-10 Totals 83 122 68.0 1,142 11 0 127.8 4-0
I haven't seen the results yet. Elway was a better QB than Favre IMHO but I could live with him ahead of Marino. Staubach, and Luckman.
Marino is way over rated. 8-10 Post-Season record isn't worthy of #15. He should be somewhere in the bottom 50.
I can certainly live with it, too. If you read one of my posts from last night or this morning, you'll see I had problems with some of the panelists. Plus, it's not like some great football book fell from the heavens containing a proper list. This list was about opinions-some from football historians and coaches and ex-players, but also some from semi-clowns like Rich Eisen. I think Mike Francesser had a vote, too.
The Seahawks got screwed so badly on this list it isn't even funny. Steve Largent - Retired with the most TDs of any WR in history Walter Jones - Best offensive linemen since Anthony Munoz Kenny Easley - This guy was up there with Ronnie Lott There should have been much more discipline about spots for each position. You put 25 QBs and 25 RBs on the list there is no room for some amazing players that were better.
Where do you rank Steve Young? Short career as a starter but his offenses dominated and he was a physical freak.
As I mentioned earlier, I agree that Largent got screwed. He likely got screwed by the more clown-like panelists. The true league historians likely all voted for Largent whereas guys like Rich Eisen voted for Michael Irvin instead. Eisen said he voted for Irvin because he works with him. Ogden made the list instead of Walter Jones. I actually think Ogden was indeed the better player, so I think the panelists got that one right. That you think Jones was better than Ogden is reasonable. I do not feel Ogden was significantly better than Jones, so if some people find for Jones over Ogden, that's okay. Easley was a great player, but safeties always get short shrift on these kinds of lists and in the Hall of Fame selection process. Lott is the only safety in the Hall of Fame who entered the league after 1975. That'll change in the coming years when Ed Reed and possibly Troy Polamalu make the HOF. So, when you are a safety and you have a short career, you're not making a list like this. Everybody who made the top 100 is already in the HOF or will be in it. Easley won't make it, so it would have been very difficult for the panelists to include him over many Hall of Famers. In my opinion, the players who got screwed the most were Largent and Ken Houston. Houston was one of the greatest ballhawks of all-time, right up there with Dick Lane and Ed Reed. He was also a great tackler and was one of the safeties on the league's 75th anniversary team. edit- will put this in the same post I believe Unitas, Montana, Baugh, Graham, Elway, Luckman, Staubach, Manning, and Brady were better than Young. Young and Marino and Favre and maybe a few others would be in the mix for the #10 spot.
I agree with you about the Seahawks. Personally I would put Unitas, Montana, Baugh, Graham, and Manning in the top five with Graham at # 1 overall. For me the six spot is between Elway and Young. Elway gets the nod here for longevity. If you were old enough to watch Luckman play maybe you could make a case for him here but I wasn't old enough so I will put Luckman at seven. Bradshaw, Favre, and Staubach round out the top ten with Marino falling just short at eleven.
