Favre

Health, tougher division, tougher conference are facts not excuses.

I don't get upset that you don't think Chad is playing well, that's not even debatable. He's playing very well and right now is the best QB in the division and one of the best in the league.

I said Chad was better when HEALTHY, unfortunately he hasn't been healthy much.

When have I not acknowledged where you are coming from? I have said over and over favre is an all-time great, he's just not in the discussion for greatest ever. I never said Chad was a better QB career wise, I am saing he's playing better this year(which he is) and has been better when healthy since he took over in '02.

You are good at hurling insults but can you please get involved in a discussion and bring some valid points to the table before you throw around your silly insults?

off the top of my head(in no particular order):

Graham
Marino
Montana
Brady
Elway
Dawson
Aikman
Unitas
Starr


There may be more.

I'd love to see the proof of that.

he won only our 2nd AFC east title EVER and we made 3 postseasons in 5 years w/ him w/ the only times msising b/c he was hurt. He's got us to and played in plenty of big games.

I agree Staubauch is underrated but Manning is overrated.

 

Yes , i talk shit cause i can you f*cking retard - Miami will soon be ahead of the Jets!!:shit:

The jets may make the playoffs but you're not super bowl team and far from it,so take a hint and realize the Jets f*cked up by this move .(favre)

I love it - 18 seasons, time to get the wranglers on and get on the John Deere - move on you OLD MAN - INT KING , maybe the wranglers are to tight!!:breakdance:

 

Wasn't it Marino's INT record that Favre broke? I think it was. At any rate, they threw INT's at a similar rate throughout there careers.

 

Fair enough. I will respond to your quarterback list, but first, I will tell you (as you requested) that Favre won the MVP award in 1995, 1996, and 1997. (The year where it was most questionable was 1997 where he shared it with Barry Sanders because they easily could of just given it to Barry Sanders as he had over 2,000 yards rushing - However, Favre Led the NFL in passing yards and Touchdown passes and was clearly the best QB in the league, and in my opinion, just as valuable to his team as Sanders was to his)


Now as for your list of quarterbacks who you think would give your team a "better chance of winning".

Joe Montana - I completely agree with you. There was no better clutch, big game QB than Montana and he was no where near as mistake prone as Favre is in critical situations. In my opinion, he IS the best quarterback of all-time.

Steve Young - I'm sorry but I just don't see how you can write this and mean it. First of all, Steve Young's 49ers played Brett Favre's Packers (when both players were in their primes) MANY times. Brett Favre almost ALWAYS outplayed Steve Young in those games. Furthermore, the Packers OWNED the 49ers and eliminated them from the playoffs in 96 and 97 IN San Fransisco (Including the 97 NFC championship game, where Favre totally outplayed Young again). In 98, the 49ers (In another playoff showdown with Packers at home) escaped with the last second victory (In another game that Favre totally outplayed Young in and that the 49ers only pulled to because the refs blew a huge call in the final minute - Jerry Rice fumbled on the game winning drive but was incorrectly ruled down by contact) Favre had a much stronger arm than young, never had a hall of fame receiver (yet alone, the best receiver in the history of the sport), and was much more durable than Young. As great as Young was, Favre was clearly better.

Tom Brady - I agree with you for all of the same reasons I agree with you about taking Montana over Favre.

John Elway - Obviously, this is a respectable choice. Personally, I have always thought that he was overrated. When you say "Favre like passer", you are showing us that you haven't compared their statistics in any meaningful way. Favre has been a MUCH MORE productive passer than Elways ever was. I agree with you about his mobility, however, one of the most underrated aspects of Favre's game is his mobility and his ability to avoid sacks and taking big hits. (And early in his career, he was one of the most dangerous scramblers in the entire NFL) I respect his one but I happen not to agree. Obviously, Elways is an all-time great though.

Jim Kelly - WHAT?? You can't be serious. He was a wonderful player but he had better talent (hall of fame running back, for starters) around him than Favre and was a particularly bad big game quarterback. Sorry, there just isn't a legitamte comparison between him and Favre. (Of course, Favre's numbers and productivity trumps his rather easily)

Dan Fouts - He's an all-time great passer, however, he just didn't last long enough and didn't have the durability. Also, he was terribly immobile and didn't handle a pass rush anywhere near as well as Favre does. Also had much better offensive talent around him than Favre ever had. Another one that I just can't understand.

Johnny Unitas - Maybe. I'm not old enough to appreciate him. He certainly has to be on anyone's top five list. I have no problem with this one.

Bart Starr - Another example of a guy with much more talent around him than Favre ever had. Was no where near the Passer that Favre has been. He was a prolific winner but with one of the best teams ever assembled (the 67 packers might be the best team ever). His numbers just don't compare to Favre's. I don't see it.

Troy Aikman - NO WAY. He was a great player but is another guy with much better offensive talent around him and no where NEAR the passing numbers of Favre. Also, he was no where NEAR as durable. This one just isn't all that credible.

As for me getting a room with Favre, all I can say is that you obviously haven't read all of my posts on this site related to him and your snide coments due little for your credibility.

 

Ouchy, were you really being serious about taking Jim Kelly or Troy Aikman over Favre?

 

Overall, this is a good response to my post and I appreciate that. There are a few things I still disagree with. I would argue that in no way are tougher division/conference facts. The mere mention of the word "better" means its debatable. But I don't want to argue about this because it isn't really my point. Even if they are considered facts, they can still be used as excuses. I'm sure you remember in the Oakland game when Baker(?) fell down in overtime.

FACT: Baker fell down, leaving him unable to make a possible game winning catch.
EXCUSE: We would have won the game if Baker hadn't fallen down. Therefore it isn't really Favre's fault we lost.

Even though it is a fact that Baker fell down, it can still be used as an excuse for why the Jets lost to Oakland. I think you and I would agree that we don't like to hear excuses for losing. I just plain don't like to make excuses for any argument. If an excuse is needed, your argument is left wanting.

I don't even know how to begin arguing that Penny is certainly not one of the best QB's in the league. I know you don't like numbers, but his just cant compete with the following:

Philip Rivers, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Jason Campbell, Kyle Orton, Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Jake Delhomme.

The last few in the list may not have superb #'s, but they are at least "debatable". To top that off, he just doesn't have the wins either. It's a fact that his team is last in the division. Debate me all you want, just avoid making excuses for why he doesn't have the numbers and/or wins. These other QB's didn't need them, why should he?

 

Lets set some facts straight right now: None of the "all time great" QB's (the perrenial top 10) play like Favre. None. You can argue some may have just as strong of a arm (although arguing they are stronger then Favre's is pretty hard to do). and you can easily argue some were better scramblers, better runners, and obviously better decision makers. You can even argue that some carried the same passion favre does, but express it differently.

You can never say that any QB plays like favre. I mean, even talks about Tom Brady: "he is just as good as favre was in his prime without the mistakes". Alright, in terms of numbers? maybe. In terms of production on the field? Not even close. While brady piled on 3 super bowls (obviously, a great accomplishment), he did it as a game managing QB. One thing no one will ever label favre as is ag ame manager. He is a risk taker. High risk, high reward type passer. He seems a window that is just big enough fro a football and nothing else? He'll throw it.

In his prime, Favre was a superb scrambler, averaging three rushing TD's a season. He has, throughout his entire career, consistently been up there as the least sacked QB in the league, all while going through now three or four major shifts on the OL in front of him. Oh, and those bad decisions that everyone knocks on? Those decisions also made him great. In his prime, he was always getting 30+ td seasons, and 18 or less ints per season. I agree tom brady is a great QB, I don't agree you can compare him to favre in how they play without bad mistakes.

Favre's TD numbers: Let me tell you. a third, maybe close to half, of those TD's came off very risky throws.


And anyone who thinks favre is a crappy scrambler has never watched the man play. I am still waiting for Mangini to realize favre is amazing when you start calling roll out passes. All I hear from jets fans is "he holds the ball too long".

I just don't see how he can NOT be in the top 5.

Few criteria I hold for being in the top 5 of all time.

#1 - You must have at least one ring. Like it or not, it is the pinacle of the sport, and unless you win it at least once, your career was never complete. This eliminates a slew of QB's.

#2 - You would of had to of started almost every game of your career each season. Most of the all time greats did, so this doesn't eliminate many.

#3 - You must have a significant winning percentage in your career. Hovering around the .500 mark wont cut it.

#4 - Outside of SB and Playoff wins: You needed to consistently beat your division rivals.

#5 - You need solid numbers. Not necessarily Favre Like, or Marino like, but pretty decent ones.

See, Favre is usually tossed in the top 5 because:

1. He owns all significant records.
2. He's been to two super bowls, and won one.
3. He has only had one losing season in 16+ years of starting.
4. He never missed a game his entire career.
5. His love and passion for the game.
6. He is arguably the most exciting QB to watch every time he steps on the field.
7. Possibly the popular player in the history of the NFL.

People just love to hate him, and hate to love him, because of how he plays.

 

Hahah. Just to let you know, each time you post, you help in resuscitating it by bumping it.

 

By the way, does anyone know, offhand, what the record is for the longest thread that's neither an ongoing thread (e.g. an official political thread) nor a game thread?

 

Everybody's got an opinion... and ranking the top ten QBs of all time is completely subjective. Do you base it off of stats? Do you base it off of longevity? What about toughness? What about Superbowls? What about just the ability to Win, regardless of stats? No matter the criteria you establish for your argument, the important thing is that your criteria is consistent.

I just don't see any consistency with your criteria. It appears that you rank one QB on one set of standards and then apply another set of standards to justify ranking another QB.

If you're going to put Marino in because of his statistics, then why wouldn't Favre be up there? You do know that Favre owns all of the significant records AND has a SB win.

And Otto Graham... seriously. I know he was a pioneer and ironman of the early days, but being the first to do something shouldn't automatically make you the best. What records does Otto still hold? I'm not all about statistics, I agree that he's one of the greatest ever, probably a top ten'er. But if you're going to include Otto, then where is Sammy Baugh in your list.

Len Dawson... Len Dawson... you rank Len Dawson above Favre! What did Len do that Favre hasn't. Statistically, Len was average - Favre blows him away. What was your criteria for including Dawson?

I'm just trying to understand how you built your list.

 

Maybe I should pose a different question for Junc just to stir this thread up a bit more:

Junc, where do you rank Chad Pennington all time?

 

Favre is our QB no matter how much we speculate. We just need to ride the Favre wave as long as he is here and see where we end up. Sure the guy makes mistakes but who doesn't fuck up! Nobody is perfect in football or any other arena of life.:beer:

 

and u were saying the giants were a superbowl team at this time last year?? go away you fucken moron

 

What are you 12? They should have age restrictions to post in here.

 

Alright, this dude is just trolling now and adding absolutely nothing to this thread.

Granted, this thread shouldn't have perpetuated to the point it has, and I'm guilty of that myself, but at least I'm partaking in debate.

 

Everyone has ways of determining who they believe the best of the best is. No one is really wrong in the end as it's all subjective and individual bias to a certain extent.

For me; it wasn't the wins or the records that made me decide I had seen the best (although I love to throw those stats into my debates when I have them).

For me the final determining straw was when Brett played Oakland about five years ago when his father had passed away the day before. I remember saying to my wife something like "well they may let him come out and toss a couple of passes to keep his streak alive but he will be to messed up to play the whole game".

Well, as some of you know I was wrong. Brett came out to throw for 399 yards and 4 TD's to win the game in a massive blowout !!! He had a team meeting that same day where he told his teammates "Don't worry, I got your back". Those may not have been the exact words but the message was clear that even under those circumstances, he would not let his teammates down.

His team played unbelievable that night and I still remember seeing tears in the eyes of some of them as they continued to score. He didn't give up on them and they played their hearts out for him.

That's what Brett brings to the locker room and you can't place a stat on it because it's just too big.

Thanks for the listen.

Quick Video Link: http://video.google.ca/videosearch?...vre oakland raiders&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f&start=30

 

that is shottenheimer for you

 

I don't really feel like rehashing all this crap for the millionth time but some of your assessment of Favre is accurate and other parts are truly lacking in info on the particulars of each season. Stat sheets won't tell the whole story. Most notably the 2002 season and the way it ended. That team peaked about midseason and went downhill from there....mostly due to injuries. Favre had some torn knee ligaments, Chad Clifton was out for the year after the Warren Sapp hit and a few other key players on offense were really banged up. That team had nothing left by the time the end of the year came around. People who watched GB week in and week out could see this. I'm pretty sure you Jets fans weren't paying too much attention to all of this.