There are so many factors involved that you can't just look at it as coach versus coach unless you look at a few isolated factors, IMO. Things the HC is directly responsible for - how the team comes out of the tunnel, management of assistant coach responsibilities, player management, clock management, clutch coaching decisions like going for it on a 4th and short versus trying to draw a team off before the snap, etc. The actual results (W/L), while being on the head of the HC, are also largely affected by factors that are shared in responsibility by the HC and GM, scouting department, film team, OC and DC, assistants, etc. HERM: Herm came in and tried to install the Tampa Cover-Who with existing 3-4 base personnel, then followed a comedy of errors that I think should be a shared in responsibility between Herm, Cottrell, Bradway, and the scouting department, trying to build a mirror of a championship defense on the cheap. But that was not entirely their fault either (the 'on the cheap' part) because they were handcuffed by huge and ridiculous contracts for Vinny, Curtis and some others. On the offensive side we had a HC who was trying to be as conservative as his heroes Tony Dungy and Marty Schottenheimer, an OC who, while not very imaginative, was handcuffed with a skeleton crew at wideout, an aging QB with a great arm but no accuracy, and a burgeoning young QB with great accuracy and a limited arm. Granted, they had probably the most consistent OL/RB combos in the league, but when your offense is one-dimensional, there is only so far you will go without a lights-out defense. MANGINI: Mangini came into the Jets with quite a different approach, to rebuild versus install his systems with all existing personnel. The Jets' marquee DE John Abraham was immediately traded to the Falcons, they cleaned up the salary cap situation almost immediately, and have started to find out what existing players whose contracts deemed them untradeable or unreleasable would work in his defensive schemes. Many of these players have failed, Jon Vilma unfortunately being at the forefront. Both seasons the defense came out flat and through some pretty creative scheming, have had strong second-half seasons. Still not good enough. On offense, Mangini walked into a situation with a starting QB with a ruined throwing shoulder, an neglected offensive line that was a shadow of it's former self, a future HOF RB who was on the verge of medical retirement, tight ends who had just begun to get receiving reps, a great wideout with some injury concerns, and a darkhorse wideout who had never been given a chance under Herm. The Chad situation would have been difficult for aany veteran HC who immediately commands respect upon his hiring. I think it was doubly difficult for a rookie HC who had to build up that respect in his first season. Mangini has made just as many on-field errors in his second season as HC as Herm did in his 4th and 5th, however, and while they are frustrating, I think he needs some time himself to develop. On the surface, one would assume that Herm comes out on top for W/L results alone, but you can't really compare the finished products without giving them both the same amount of time. I think the funniest thing about the whole comparison is how the two of them began their own athletic careers, Herm having been a pro corner while Mangini topped out as a lineman at Wesleyan, and how they have ended up: Mangini is an Xs and Os coach while Herm is a motivator that leaves the Xs and Os to the people beneath him. The drafts, however, while using pretty much the same scouting personnel, have been leagues better with Mangini at the helm. I would attribute this to 2 main factors: relegation of Terry Bradway from the GM position to Director of Player Personnel, and the input of a HC who knows what he needs and ability to think outside the box, not just the players he wants to duplicate.
They drafted two guys two years ago, and then completely botched the OL and let it become degraded. Wasnt groh in there for a year in between them? There is roster turnover every year. There is a double standard at work here. For some guys, what Chad did against NE was terrible because he is Chad. If Clemens had the same game as Chad did, people would be praising him. Similarly, if Edwards pulled some of the in-game moves that EM did this year, people would be raising holy hell over his ineptitude. If an edwards team blew second half leads like this team has, and had brad smith in at QB for three series and throwing a 4th down pass, he'd be crucified here. But there's always next year to go 2 out of three, whichever way the chips fall.
Herm didn't HAVE to pull any of the in-game moves Mangini did because he had a big ass, kick ass O-line and a HOF RB still in his prime. True...drafting D'Brick and Mangold was a bad idea because he didn't fix the whole thing yet. And I seriously like how no one actually cares that he went hard after guys like Thomas, Colombo, and Andrews...RESULTS say he didn't get them and that means he sucks because a good coach signs whoever he wants whenever he wants and NEVER hits bumps in the road and NEVER sees things like a losing record and certainly NEVER does anything to piss of NY/NJ fans, quite possibly the most logic based fans around.
I'm not sure of the circumstances why those particular FAs didnt sign with the Jets, but let's just say I'm not surprised that there will be many players who will choose to sign elsewhere rather than here. Yes, the 9-7 Groh team was a monster that herm inherited...LOL! The abysmal playcalling is due to having to try trickery, riiiight. The CS thought they were going to be good, so they traded for a 31 year old RB to run the ball THIS year- that isnt building for the future. That is a miscalculation. And i dont mind Jones, but it's clear that the FO's plan for this year was FUBAR. The team couldnt get its ass in gear until after the bye week for the second year in a row. Let's see if they are ready to play in week one next year. I make no excuses for mangini. He is what he is, no more and no less.
Thomas - Getting up there in age, chose to resign with a non-rebuilding franchise. Colombo - Took less to play under Phillips and for the Cowboys again. Andrews - RFA, would have had to give up valuable picks. Yea, and having Ellis, Abraham, Mawae, Pennington, Fabini, Thomas, Fergy, Lewis, Jordan, Martin, Coles, Chrebet, Glenn, Farrior...none of that helped Herm. It's not like he coached this team til these guys were gone, old, injured, or some combo of the 3. True, we're good enough to play smashmouth with anyone... He's 29. And he wasn't expected to carry the full load. And he's a young 29 with only 1 or 2 300 carry seasons. Not that I liked the trade either mind you. He's still a good guy and a decent option for the running game.
Neither one has taken us to the Super Bowl - therefore - at this point they are in the same group of Jet coaches ---- playoffs but no more ----including: Walt Michaels Joe Walton Bill Parcells I think those are the only other coaches to lead the Jets to the playoffs and not the Super Bowl - which of course ONLY Weeb Ewbank has accomplished. I give Parcells the edge because he had us closer than any of the others, and I think we believe more in the team under Tuna.
in more seasons and didn't get us to the AFC Championship game... Damn Herm Lovers - he's a bust in KC -----
It's not so much Herm loving (at least I hope it's not, as he is not a very good coach) but rather bridging the ridiculously overly large gap between his reputation as a coach and Mangini's...
You're still making excuses all over the place for him. If he wanted a smashmouth team, he wouldnt be playing the 3-4 with no NT and neglecting the OL in 07. Many of the starters are new starters under this CS, and some are from the old regime that he chose to play out of position. He hasnt put the talent he does have in the best position to succeed on the field. The two favorite excuses I have seen here are the schedule (that's a myth) and not enough talent. The talent levels between most teams isnt that disparate, but if you cant coach them up and make appropriate halftime adjusatments, you will lose. He tries to fit round pegs into square holes. The result is 3-11. And I'm sure there are plenty of FAs who will bypass the Jets and opt to play somewhere else where they think they'll be treated better.
If "reasons" are excuses then yea. I just don't expect a team that was as bad and depleted as our '05 team to actually be rebuilt by year 2. Crazy, I know. True...spending two first round picks on the two most important OL spots is neglect fo real. And who....where do we get this NT? You're acting like they grow on trees. Wilfork came like 5 years after Hampton, and Ngata came 3 years after Wilfork. I don't know where to start. 1. Thats a good thing to have so many of the guys the new coach drafted to be starters. Thats a very good thing, especially since two of them are 2 of our top 5 defensive players (hell, top 3.) 2. Thats a beautiful blanket situation. What should he do differently with the talent? Let me guess...switch to the 4-3 where we could do nothing but dominate? 3. Love how the strong schedule thing is a myth, no explanation necessary. Just is. 4. The rest of your post is a bunch of blanket statements that have been repeated here a million times...the usual "square pegs, round holes" argument that has never actually held any water but is constantly repeated...we're not that untalented (another one that appearantly needs no explanation)... And just about every team and franchise can say this, except maybe the Pats, Cowboys, and Colts right now.
didn't feel like reading through the thread, but one of the main reasons for Herm success is that Tuna built up a great base for him to manage and add final touches.
That 9 & 7 team that he inherited had allready drafted his QB, his pass rushing DE his run stoping DE his starting TE, Coles, Randy Thomas among others. The team had reloaded with the trade of Keyshawn and 4 No. 1 picks and already had a LT and the best center in the league. The trade for Jones who is not 31 lost us zero picks it didn't even cost us a round and the money Jones got was reasonable. We didn't give up any future for Jones.
I'm not getting into this debate with you again, because you don't debate points, but rather say bad things aren't really bad, and good things are even better than they look.... You keep saying that arguments don't hold water, and back that up with your opinions,or no more factual evidence than the refuted post provided.... It's hypocritical... I'm not going to get into specifics of the debate, because I don't feel like having you tell me "nuh uh" again, but, what it comes down to is this team is going to, very likely, end with a worse record than it had in 2005, that terrible injury ravaged season, the year before Mangini came here.... When you rebuild, you can level the original structure and start from the ground up. You don't start to build, and two years later, end up with less than you had in the first place... I can understand saying 'give him more time' but defending his body of work here so far as good, is just blind loyalty
Great point as usual Winston.............. Without the use of sarcasm which is difficult for me. These 2 took over completely different teams (circumstances). I am sorry although you can not help but be greatly dissappointed by this years effort, both by the coaches and players. Mangini took over a team that was on its last legs. All the best players save a few (Vilma, Rhodes) were way on the wrong side of 30, injured or just plain mediocre. From 2001 to 2005 this team drafted horribly. It largely ignored both lines, let its most stout players walk in free agency and basically did not replace a single one with a better player, even though Bradway consumed an entire draft getting Robertson. That entire time maybe one or 2 young players came in and made an impact because younger players got perilously little playing time. Now like I said this year has been a waste. However it takes sometime to turn a franchise around. They have been drafting better and at least trying to upgrade various positions on the team or at the very least making it look like they are. If this FO can get its act together in free agency this year and build on its good drafts, I think this dumb question of who is better Herm or Mangini will take care of itself. As it stands after this season, it is akin to asking what smells better Catshit or Dogshit.
The point was if you are bringing in a 29 year old RB it isnt for the future, it's for now. I didnt say they gave up any future considerations for him, and as I also said, i dont mind having him. The point was, the CS/FO obviously miscalculated by thinking they would sign an older RB because they thought they'd be better than they were this season. This CS has utterly failed to adjust their strategies to the talent they do have on the team, which does not bode well for the future. Getting players is only part of the equation- coaching them up to maximize performance is quite another. they got Clemens, but he has been slow in developing. They re-signed thomas, who has been invisible. They brought in some Jags like Kenyon, Bowens, Bonehead Elam, and Clarke (yeah I know, he was robbed of the Pro bowl). Many of the players on the team are there because THIS CS and FO brought them in. I didnt see any of you EM slurpers predicting 3 wins before the season began. Start by admitting they've done a crappy job this season, and hope maybe they'll do better next year.
I predicted a lossing season whether it's 3,4 or 5 doesn't really change the fact that I saw a team as a lossing team this year. I didn't see you killing the Jones deal as stupid before the season either.
That needs to be quoted for truth. It's funny how quickly people turned on Mangini and now this TJ trade. I actually DID trash the crap out of this trade both here and on JI. I mocked the "this trade makes the play action a weapon again" logic, the "he's a WINNER" logic...now I actually have to defend this trade because most fans have no idea WTF they want.... it's just easy trash to things when they're going bad. No sport teaches you that more than football. Hindsights a hell of a weapon when it comes to analyzing an NFL team...
