That wasn't necessarily my point. However ,there was no Abraham on the line either. (yes, i know he didn't play in playoffs) So, there was not a dominating pass-rushing DE (assuming Ellis is the anchor-type DE). My point was that looking at the personnel, you had a MLB that was very good, but not elite to build a 4-3 defense around, and no othe very good to elite players that were suited to the 4-3. Can you really fault Mangini for going to a 3-4 which he believes to be a better system?
Yeah, in retrospect it's easy to fault him because there have been no significant injuries on defense (Pouha doesn't count as significant until he proves he can play DT in the NFL, which he hasn't so far) and the Jets D still blows chunks on a regular basis. That means one of two things is true: 1. The Jets just don't have the talent to play in a 3-4. 2. The coaching has been horrible in assisting players in making the switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4. I believe the Jets issues on D are a combination of the two above. I also believe that ALL of the responsibility for what is going on now lies with Mangini. It's his job to put the right players on the field in the right scheme for them to have success. If that's not getting done then he's not doing his job.
Ellis(w/ and w/o Abe), Robertson, Vilma and barton all played at pro Bowl levels in 2004. In 2005 Vilma actually made the Pb while the other 3 were hurt. those were our best defensive players and we changed to the 3-4 removing those strengths to turned it into a D around bryan Thomas and Victor Hobson. obviosuly we were better off centered around the other players. We just don't have the players to run this system. I'm all for anything as long as it works but in a year and 1/2 it clearly does not work w/ the personnel we have.
The Jets just don't have enough talent period on defense. forget 3-4/4-3. We've been playing alot of 4-3. We still can stop the run nor can we stop the pass. We're missing too many pieces on defense period.
Uh...ya think? There are pretty much no parallels between Tomlin and Mangini. The former took over a team with a franchise QB, the best defensive mind in the game, and a Super Bowl OL and defense. The latter took over a team with a pop warner QB, a slew of mediocre assistants, and an OL and defense in tatters. Tomlin is reloading. Mangini is rebuilding.
We also had Jason Ferguson anchoring the defensive line. He's no longer here. If we went back to a 4-3, DRob is obviously the "under" tackle. But who plays the other tackle spot? Mosley? Pouha? And who on this team could rush the passer from a 3-point stance? Thomas and Ellis were huge busts in the 4-3, with the exception of 2004 when they had Ferguson in the middle to eat up blockers. Guess what, the lack of a big guy in the middle who eats up blockers is the exact same problem we have now. The 4-3 would be no better. We're rebuilding the defense. It's going to take time.
But here's the thing, with the way certain young players were playing in the 4-3 it makes a lot more sense to plug in additional players to BECOME a top defense as opposed to changing the system and those players not being anything close to having the same impact. My point is, they were a lot closer then to being a top defense than they are now.
That's true. The Jets were a 4-3 NT and a shutdown corner away from being a good defense even after the debacle in 2005. Now they are many pieces more away from being a topflight defense, namely a NT, a ROLB, a RILB, and a RDE. The shutdown corner they may have found but they have opened an additional two slots that are just subpar.
our D was pretty solid in 04 and in 05, but when the offense is stingy you cant expect the defense to carry the show...my favorite example is in 05 we played the panthers from quarter 1-3 it was 10 -3 panthers...we could've tied or won that game at anytime but our offense was playing volleyball cuz it certainly wasent football, final score was 30 - 3 with 20 points in the 4th quater because our defense couldnt handle the rediculious amount of time they spent on the field, if we kept our 4-3 with our offenses performance last season 13-3 wouldnt of been far fetched
See post #18, on a player-by-player breakdown the Jets had a very good 4-3MLB in Vilma and that was it. Ellis is good in both systems.
The thing that pisses me off is that they have had two offseasons now to rectify the problems on defense and I feel we are only a little bit closer to the end goal this year with the addition of Revis. I'd much rather have used the two picks we traded for him to pick up a couple of pieces for the defense instead of splurging on one. If he gets hurt our defense will be bad for years.
Players the Jets had in 2005 that were serviceable to good in a 4-3 defense: LDE Shaun Ellis LDT hole (The 4-3 NT they needed) RDT Dewayne Robertson RDE hole (JAbe was going out of town one way or the other) LOLB Eric Barton MLB Jon Vilma ROLB hole (your opinion may differ but I consider Hobson to be a waste of a slot) LCB hole (the shutdown corner they needed) SS Kerry Rhodes FS Erik Coleman RCB David Barrett Barrett was the person closest to needing replacement and that was mainly because he was being used at LCB where more speed is needed. Where we are now: LDE Shaun Ellis NT hole RDE hole (sorry, Kenyon Coleman cannot hold down this slot on his own) LOLB hole (Bryan thomas is out of position here and just as unproductive as he was when he played RDE during JAbe's absences) LILB Eric Barton RILB Jon Vilma (who is worth much less than he is as an MLB and is close to a hole against big teams) ROLB hole LCB Andre Dyson SS Kerry Rhodes FS hole (Erik Coleman has not adapted to the 3-4 well at all) RCB hole (Ditto for David Barrett, Dyson should move here when Revis is ready to go fulltime at LCB) Obviously the hole at NT and the joke that is Victor Hobson trying to play the Lawrence Taylor role are huge in the failures of the defense to date. Having a bunch of other subpar players on the field just makes things ugly.
This defense is 2 players away from being good. If they get depth behind them then it is possible to be very good. 1.) Bring in a 3-4 NT like a Williams, Wilfork or Hampton. Yeah they do not grow on trees. 2.) OLB- Bring in a Suggs, or Merriman type. Definitely easier to fill than #1. This 3-4 is just as far away as the 4-3 would be. Probably less so. It is just another way of Jet fans complaining about the system. The fact of the matter is they use parts of both systems and the D does not look like world beaters in either. It is not like this team is getting blown out every single game. Everyone acts like we have to blow up the entire team. Last year the Jets won almost all the same type of games they are now losing. Fact of the matter is most of the same holes still exist that existed last year. However, they are being magnified by one of the worst QB performances that I can remember since Rick Mirer was behind center for the Jets. Bring in a decent NT and a pass rushing guy opposite Thomas to get Hobson off the field and the Jets defense would be an order of magnitude better. Same goes for a decent QB. When the going goes bad the reaction is to blow everything up. This team is not as bad as it seems, nor was it as good as it seemed last year. It is a rebuilding team. The unfortunate part for me is the reluctance to switch QB's. Not so much because Chad stinks, which he does. But to quantify what you have in Clemens. If he can at least be competent this team might be 3-3 right now and that is with all the perceived holes this team has. Also to get on topic, Tomlin has inherited a team two years removed from the Super Bowl. It has a great mix of young elite players and grizzled veterans. He also inherited a much better coaching staff. Tomlin has instilled a discipline that is similar to Mangini and many of the players were complaining about how tough his camp was............... gee where have we heard that one before.
Using your model I guess we disagree on a few things but IMO this D would be fine if you plug in the two holes that are there. The Jets desperately need competent depth for the De's which would also make Ellis and Coleman much better.
My overall point was that when Mangini came in it was not like he was handed a number of great 4-3 players capable of molding into a great 4-3defense. Even your post mentioned "servicable" players. Barton is 30 at this point, Barrett didn't pan out as expected, Coleman is barely servicable at S. Or, like in Tomlin's case it was not like Mangini was handed a defense that was pretty well intact from a Super Bowl run. So, if you were Mangini and you think the 3-4 defense is more effective, you look at a roster at the start of 2006 with an Pro Bowl (alternate) MLB, no CBs, no 4-3 edge rusher, no big DT, an average pentrating 4-3 DT in Robertson (who was coming off a down year), and a DE capabale of playing well in either system. You know that you have a probably 3 or 4 years unless you are a complete failure. Why woudn't you put in the defense that you think would ultimately prove more effective? (especially when you are coming from an organization that seemed to be able to get the pieces it needed.)
You already know that the 2006 draft has produced no players of significance for a 3-4 defense. You know that free agency produced only two players of significance in 32 year old Kimo Von Ohlhoffen and Andre Dyson. You know that the Patriots not only drafted for the 3-4 but also signed really significant players for it in 2001, which was the first year they actually played the 3-4 for more than a handful of downs a game under Belichik who stuck with the 4-3 in 2000 because his linemen were not suitable for the 3-4. The reason that you don't go with the 3-4 in 2006 is because the odds on a successful transition to it are fairly low given the personnel and the lack of effort in finding better personnel in the offseason. That you would still be pushing the 3-4 hard in 2007 knowing what happened in 2006 and still making no determined effort to find a NT is just kind of silly. You have to be logical in how you approach the transition to your favored defense. That's what Belichik did in New England in 2000. It's what Mike Tomlin did in Pittsburgh this year. It's definitely not what Mangini did in 2006.
Just so we rememner we were 1 of 2 makeable kicks away from beating 15-1 Pitt AT Pitt 1 year removed from when Mangini took over. The gap btw us ad Pitt wasn't that big. It's easier to find a DT than it is to try and find 4-5 new players to fit the new scheme, right? We had most of the talent we need for a big time D and we are playing to the strengths of guys like Thomas and Hobson instead of Vilma, Robertson and Ellis.
Ellis, Coleman, Hobson, Barton, Thomas and Harris are all better suited for the 3/4. Since we blew the deal with Ferguson, we have had the bum of the month club trying to fill the other DT spot, not to mention Robertson who is a decent not great DT with one very good year cost us two first round picks and is the highest paid player on the roster. If a 4/3 DT is so easy to find, how come the only good one on our roster is the single most expensive player on the team in terms of salary, cap hit and draft cost?
