Maybe it's the accountant in me, but I just can't see overpaying for an unproven talent even though I have extra second round picks. It's not just the first round pick, but the contract that goes with it. Turner will want a big contract especially if it's a first pick that is given up (more on that below). This is the big difference in our viewpoints. You said in an earlier post that Turner would come cheap. There's no way IMO that Turner doesn't demand a big contract. Consider this - if they Jets give their 1st (or even a second) they will be looking to sign him to a 4 or 5 year contract. They're not going to give up a high pick like that and only sign him for 2 or 3 years. So at the end of his contract, Turner will be pushing 30 an age where most backs are done or will be going downhill. It is highly unlikely any team would give him a huge contract at that point. So now is the team for his big payday. Factor in that contracts aren't guaranteed and he would be foolish not to want a big contract. Thus that's why I look at receiving skills and blocking when evaluating Turner overall when looking at the value of what we would be giving up. That's why I wouldn't give up a 1st or 2nd with his unproven skills. You make some good points, but I disagree with what his contract demands will be as expressed above. I think we can both agree that Turner is an unproven talent all around. I can't see giving a high pick and a big contract for an unproven talent, especially since we have so many more pressing needs. I don't want to see a RB drafted in the first 2 rounds either, I'd rather the lines be addressed and CB/LB. But given a choice between the 2, I'd rather draft an unproven RB with great potential than overpaying for an unproven Turner.
Hey sorry about that, the quoting people was not directed toward you. Yes, I think it is painfully obvious the run blocking needs to be fixed first.
See the problem is you're making the ASSUMPTION he can't do this stuff just because he's not asked to do it. There really is very little evidence either way on whether he can or can't. San Diego's thrown the ball to him before, what if I said he can recieve? It's not a big enough sample size to say whether he can or can't. Of course what you DO get to use is the very blankety "well if San Diego hasn't used him to do that stuff, then obviously they don't think he can." Which, again, neither side can prove is true but it sounds alot more definitive for anti-Turner than pro-Turner or whatever. BTW: Turner and Lamont's draft position have little to do with anything at this point. Lamont came into the NFL with legit talent, everyone knew it. The thing mostly holding him back is his attitude, now injuries because of a poor work ethic, and a lack of a real offensive line. "Turner has done nothing Lamont has done about more carries" this and "I love to complain about thaaat." Considering how they act, I think they are similarly physically talented but Lamont's attitude may be his downfall.
Same ol' Same ol'. "He can't catch"? - He wasn't asked to catch the ball! Not in college because of their offense and certainly not in the NFL with LT right next to him. Read the scouting reports and then tell me he can't catch. That's just bullshit. Some of you guys can't find anything negative about him and then you come up with this crap which is not even true. Lamont was a GREAT receiver when we drafted him yet he caught only 5-15 passes per season for us. Pathetic numbers. And what do you know? A year later he leads all backs in receptions with 70. Now all of a sudden he can catch because he has the numbers to prove it? It's just pathetic. "He's not reliable"? - Yeah. That's what you get for breaking every school record. Makes sense. Oh, wait, he didn't carry the ball 400 times last season so that means he can't do it, right? That's usually what the Turner-Haters think. He wasn't asked to do something and therefore he CAN'T. Of course. So, what else do you got? He's too expensive? Without even knowing what type of contract he's going to ask for? He's too old (24)? He doesn't fit here with his fancy goatee? Let's hear it.
You're missing the point. It's not about Turners abilities, it's about his value. There is no question in my mind that in the current state of the Jets, giving up our first round pick, and the size of contract that will be required, is not a prudent move to moving forward. You disagree, c'est la vie....
1. Because most people who want Turner realize it's like drafting a first rounder anyway. He's had NFL experience and training but he's still young and fresh. He's got NFL tools and an NFL body. 2. Joseph Addai got 5 years 11.65 million with a 4.7 milllion bonus. He was a late first round draft pick. How much more could Turner get? Do you honestly believe that it'd break the Jets bank? 3. This years draft is deep, but looking at most mocks...it's deep AFTER the first round.
Per your point number 1. I agree that the experience he has garnered probably makes Turner comparable to some of the backs that would be available at that point in the draft (I have questions about some of his abilities but that is not my argument here). When I say value, I don't think looking at the past histories of similar trades that Turner is worth our first rounder; it would not be getting the proper value for that pick (you can't let another GM take you to the cleaners just because you really want somebody, there are too many instances in the past where that comes back to bite you and you lose all credibility in the league circles), plus I believe it's still more important for the Jets to bolster the Defense and the O-line. As for point number 2, draft pick salaries are slotted per draft position which is why Addai received what he did. That would not be the case here, where Turner would look to get more of a starters salary with a lot of guaranteed money, no doubt about it. He will expect to easily eclipse the 5/27.5 that Lamont received with what I believe was over 11 mill guaranteed. As for point number 3, I hope you are right because contrary to what some folks believe the Jets still need to fill a lot of positions with both starters, depth and role players. This Turner scenario is not cut and dry which is why there has been so much debate about it. You seem to really like him as a player and have no problem giving up the pick and money. That's fine. I like him as a player but don't see him as the missing piece, and wouldn't give up necessary building blocks to get him. If their demands come down to a more reasonable area for a player of his caliber (3rd round pick, possibly a late 2nd IMO) then I would consider it. Otherwise, I keep building up the D and the line and possibly look at other, cheaper RB alternatives....
Well thats the thing. We don't know. Thats why i said lets have faith in our front office. They will do the right thing. We will not trade for Turner if he ask for a big contract. We cant give up a 1st round pick for Turner and THEN sign him to a huge contract as well. I'm pretty sure Turner will realize that. If we give up a 1st round pick for him he has to sign a Chester Taylor (4 yrs, 15 mil.) type of contract. If he pans out, we can re-work the deal after 2 years and make him our franchise back. Then he can get his big contract.
I hear ya, I still don't like giving up a first for him but that is just me. If nothing else it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds in the coming weeks. Let's not forget, most likely the Jets are not the only team interested in his services which will also likely drive up any deal he signs...
You need to read the scouting reports again. They all say that Turner has poor technique as a receiver, that he's a body catcher who struggles to get into decent receiving position. Lamont got 17% of his touches for the Jets in the receiving game. His first big year in Oakland he got 20% of his touches in the receiving game. That's not much of a difference and it's in line with what you'd expect from going from a backup to starter if the offense was designed to throw the ball a lot.
"Marginal route runner who looks for the ball too late and is slow to settle into his patterns ? More of a body catcher than one who would reach and extend for the ball" How did you miss that one out of the same draft profile you cherry-picked the other lines from?
The more I keep looking at this draft, the more open I am to trading away a #1 for Turner, if that was the only way. Looking at the draft, there won't be a rb with nearly the potential of Turner at that spot. Also there won't be a DL that is worth drafting at 25 either. If you look at our main areas of need, we will be looking for DL, pass rush from the OLB spot & improving the running game. There is no way we should be looking at OL in the first round again, not with the amount of depth available after the first round, besides we just spent 2 first round picks on the OL last draft. If we came out of the first two rounds with these players we are a much better team than we were last year, plus FA & the rest of the draft.. 1 - Turner 2a- Anthony Spencer 2b- Beekman Maybe there is a DL in the second that is worth taking and you could take a OG or OT in the 3rd, where there will still be a ton of talent available. Bottomline is fixing our RB should be a major priority, that means upgrading the line and the Rb, it can't be one or the other it has to be both.
Exactly. Hell, if we're lucky Moses might fall to 37. It's highly improbable, but could happen. Don't forget that DL talents like Francis from Hawaii could fall as far as the second too. And about Turner not being a great reciever...first he can be taught...second...those scouting reports are a couple years ago. Ever consider that the Chargers run him when he's in the game because of his power, explosiveness, and basically his ability to run the ball?
1) How did YOU miss the part where they actually give him props for his receiving skills? 2) You said: You're trying to make him look like a bad football player. You failed miserably. He must be a pretty good player if that's your only knock on Turner. That he couldn't catch the ball like a skilled WR when he was in college. Big deal. By the way what scouting reports are you referring to anyway? You said all the scouting reports say he can't catch and stuff, and then you come up with only ONE report where they actually give him credit for his receiving skills! Awesome. :rofl:
Well if your arguement for giving our first up for Turner is that our positions of need can fall to the second - then let's ask ourselves "who can fall to our 1st pick?". You never know who will slip to us. We can possibly get a guy who fits a need and will come considerably cheaper than Turner dollar-wise. And I get a little concerned when I hear people say "we have tons of cap-space - why be cheap?". If you look at the franchises that have won consistantly in the last decade or so (Pittsburgh, New England, Philly...) they are all accused of being "cheap" yet they seem to always produce. Let's not confuse being "cheap" with being "wise".
It's nothing to get mad at, and it's completely unintentional. I copy and paste quotes for some reason.
