I don't understand your first line, about my first point about LaFleur? I know what Knapp said, but I'm focusing on his initial read, from where he was speaking at a point in time. I don't care about what went on afterwards. What was his initial reaction? What did he see before a lot of 'coaching' & fixin' started happening. What did the pristine Zach look like, before or just after the Jets CS got into Zach's head. We went through this about something on that Jet PR film thread. I'm looking at an entirely different thing than you are, it's that simple. I'm wanting to see the Zapruder film, at the exact moment JFK was shot. What happened afterward, The Warren Commission, conspiracy theories, Oliver Stone's take... I don't care. Or I'm all-in with the Webb telescope going further back in time than Hubble. I'm interested in figuring out whether Zach sucks & is irreparable, or what the coaches did, or didn't do, to destroy the kid's confidence. I'm just trying to see where Zach was, before pre-season, as far back as I can go. And that's all I was looking to glean from that PR film we discussed. Lastly, I think Zach showed some growth, after his injury last season, when Beck & Cavanaugh were still around. This season, he was totally on his own, the waterboy (Calabrese) not withstanding. To me, it's no wonder he's confused. & his confidence looks shot. So maybe, with coaching to unlearn whatever they taught Zack not to do, while receiving coaching about what to do, Zach can become, at the very least, a functional QB with an outstanding arm. In other words, is Zach a good investment? .
Look back at what you wrote about Knapp's responsibilities regarding LaFleur as "almost an afterthought," that was your first point. We can disagree about how important that was to either of them but, as I stated, I got that more from other reading I had done on what the team expected him to do than what the video showed but he confirmed those earlier reports in the video. Helping LaFleur find his way was definitely a big part of his job. Regarding Wilson, Knapp's was a very early assessment and certainly not at a time for being critical of a new player; any decent teacher always leads with recognizing things that look good. Knapp's response to the question about basketball instincts translating to football would have been promising at the time but they never seemed to materialize on the much larger playing field. As noted, Knapp had never seen Wilson work against a live NFL defense so there was no initial reaction at all. I'm not even going to attempt to decipher your Zapruder/Stone comments, being unfamiliar with that discussion at all. If it relates to a Jets PR film the purpose is clear and it's not objectivity. I'm sure every Jets fan is curious about Wilson being awful and irreparable or if he had his confidence destroyed; of course that requires the assumptions that he had confidence at all and if it was warranted and that he could play in the NFL. In the past two years I haven't strayed at all from my pre-draft stance that confidence anyone had in him was premature because he hadn't faced competition anywhere close to what he would face in the NFL. The worst possible call the Jets could have made was to put him on the field the first week of the 2021 season. LaFleur admitted that in one of his last press conferences and Knapp had talked about how such decisions used to be made vs. how they are today. My current curiosity (and that's about all that's left) leans more towards understanding not only what LaFleur, Cavanaugh, Beck and Calabrese were accomplishing and how was the decision made that it was no longer necessary? I know there was talk about mixed messages and getting everyone on the same page but, as is said, talk is cheap.
If you get a chance, listen to the podcast where Young spoke: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...las-join-the-show/id208643372?i=1000593333671 He did mention MILF and Zach do not see eye to eye, wrong approach with tough love, that it is a relationship that is broken and needs mending. Well, no more mending is needed with MILF gone, but, you get my point. He did blame both Zach and MILF for that, but I do agree vast majority of it goes to MILF. Anyway, it is a good listen. Where I blame Zach, or maybe blame is not the right word, Zach may not be just good enough, but Zach's performance on the field was terrible, and big part of it is on him, even though the Jets didn't help as much as they should have. I am of the opinion that at the end of the day whether someone succeeds or fails, most of it is on them. If say Josh Allen succeeds, sure I will credit Daboll, but most of the credit goes to Josh Allen. Zach hasn't succeed so far, and I am not prepared to say all of it is due to the Jets. Yes, Jets didn't make it easier for him, but it's not all on the Jets. Zach not succeeding has something to do with Zach also. Where I think we disagree now is what are the chances Zach will succeed going forward. I think these are low right now. I don't think they are 0, like most here, and I still think it is possible Zach can turn this around, but they are low enough where I would attempt to bring in the best QB we can to be a starter. Whether it is Lamar (depending on trade compensation/contract), Carr, or Jimmy G, I think we need the best available guy. I see Zach definitely departing only in case of Lamar, because Lamar is top 10 player and young. In case of Carr, Zach can still stay on, and depending on the progress in practice and Carr's performance he may get another chance before his contract is over.
zach deserves the blame because he’s a terrible QB….that’s why. If MLF designs plays and there are open receivers running free and Zach doesn’t see them half the time, and then half the time he DOES see them he overthrows them, then he deserves the blame. pretty cut and dried to me. He sucks. It sucks that we wasted the second overall pick on him, but at this point it is what it is. We’re not talking rookie anymore. We’re not talking only 10 games anymore. He is what he is…the worst rated QBnin the league two years running. that’s pretty terrible. I’m not buying excuses on him like poor coaching. I’m not buying “stats don’t tell the true story” BS. Hit a fucking dumpoff pass in stride consistently, stop throwing balls into the dirt. Stop running backwards for twenty yards. Enough already. he sucks….
CC, did Borat, and please Borat step in here, have a review in one of he threads where he stated that ZW was good in the pocket in college but displayed all of the issues he has in the NFL. Maybe I misinterpreted it but I am at a loss as to why you continue to beat the drum that he had to change his play? Don't get me wrong, I am not attacking you, just seems that your take and Borat's is different and I am just trying to understand your position since ZW hasn't dispalyed, except for the occassional plays, a propensity to be consistent. Unless, of course, you say the only consistent thing was his consistently bad play.
Some other names thrown out here by Rap. Definitely a couple of names I had not thought of or considered.
I think where Young was saying Zach has responsibility, was mainly that Zach needs to grow up, & stop letting outside noise get into his head. Other than the 'Zack just sucks' crowd, I think the rest of us are trying to figure out, if he just sucks, or is he fixable? One question for you: putting last season aside, did you see Zach regress this season? My point on that is, if he did regress, then what would cause that regression? The more I learn about the decisions made by the organization relating to Zach, the more I see that the CS was focused on teaching Zach what not to do, as opposed to teaching him what to do. Simplistically, we've all been kids... as a kid if you're told 'don't do that' enough times, you'll react differently than someone saying, 'yeah, you can do that, or here's another way of doing it, that may be better for you.' Most kids will choose the latter approach on their own, thus, a light goes on, instead of anxiety & self-doubt, with the former. I think Young was implying something similar, with his tough-love remark. Long story short, I'm beginning to think Zach is fixable, providing they choose their OC wisely. And when I say fixable, I mean becoming a functional QB. What his ceiling would be, I'm clueless. .
Watch this game and you tell me. This was against ranked team at that time - 2020, Boise state. Same team that a year before played BYU within 3 points. You tell me if Zach could throw from the pocket or not.
That pocket was never an NFL pocket. Especially during the cup cake COVID year. BYU OL was superior In every game they played. Wasn't even close. He can not throw from an NFL pocket. Even rewatching this game, his feet are trash, a lot of the passes he threw would never translate to the NFL. Same things I was saying predraft. Still apply today, only with further evidence now that he Is a trash QB.
The point was that he was in fact a pocket passer in College, as the film indicates, and the scheme we had fit him just fine. Whether his footwork is good or not or throws would translate to NFL is a different discussion.
I don't think we really disagree much on Zach's chances to turn things around. Much of that depends on who they bring in to work with him, and if he applies himself between now and next year. On that last point, IDK, I sure haven't spoken to him, IDK really what his work ethic is other than what has been said by numerous people who have watched or worked with him. If it's true that he's a hard worker and film junkie then he should pick up the knowledge. I will say this, based on my own personal experience and working with others, I was diagnosed with ADHD which is supposedly what Zach suffers from, and I can tell you that I struggled to learn with traditional methods. A lot my learning had to come from hands on doing - my brain just couldn't process abstract concepts well. IDK if this has anything to do with Zach's struggles, but it makes some sense to me. That's not to excuse him - if he wants to play QB, for anyone let alone in the pros, he has to overcome that limitation. From what I saw from his college tape he did that, but when he got to the Jets he had to learn a bunch of new things. When Knapp was here, and the guys they brought in after him, maybe they took the time to try to teach Zach in different ways...he seemed to be grasping things better then anyway. But when they took that away and expected him to just learn in the traditional manner he might well have struggled. Again, I wasn't there so I don't know how they worked with him, or didn't, but if this was a factor it would explain to me anyway why he struggled, and if he could get the right coach, why he could turn things around. As to needing to bring in a vet I absolutely agree. The team can't gamble that Zach turns it around next year. I believe he has a chance as I said, but they can't put all their eggs in his basket. I do think if they sign Carr (I don't think they will) then it shows the Jets are less optimistic about Zach ever being the guy, but that's okay if that's what they think, they know more than I do. I'll be shocked if they bring in Lamarr - too expensive to acquire, too expensive to pay, too much risk healthwise.
He did play from the pocket most of the time at BYU but he had a dependable pocket there. Two big things he had to change here: 1. Except for a few games at the end of 2021, and mid-season this year, the pass pro was terrible and yet he was being drilled to remain in the pocket at all costs. This all but eliminated his scrambling for forward progress. 2. At BYU he often threw outside the hash lines, not across the middle. Throwing across the middle is heavily dependent on reading your receiver's break and what the defense does in that more contested space. It takes time to get that timing down, and was made worse when Zach began second guessing himself. If I were MLF I would've looked to work more side line patterns in and more designed roll outs and RPOs to lessen the dependence on the poor pass pro. And in the end, to become a good or great QB Zach does have to change his style of play. I just don't think less than 2 seasons given all the other obstacles was enough time to do that.
The point I just made, was he never threw under the same conditions required of an NFL pocket. Which was easy to predict as well. So, I still don't agree with your assessment.
The problem is that the top QBs will be gone on the first day of new League year, and likely well be committed before that. That's March 15. If there is a major trade, it will be made before April's draft. So, the Jets won't see Zach again before they decide on what type of veteran to bring. It's not like we can see him in camp and then decide. So, the decision has to be made with the information we currently have at hand, even if they feel there is a chance Zach can become great. And that's why I feel there is no choice but to go after the best QB out there, and that's Lamar, Carr, and Jimmy G. Lamar is unrealistic, and Carr and Jimmy may decide to go elsewhere. But they have to try, and Woody indicated that much in his presser. I would actually not mind Greg Olsen and Carr pairing. Carr had his best years with Greg, who seems like a competent OC.
Marcus Brady? Reich called all the plays! He is basically a glorified assistant, not an OC! I hope some of these names are just smoke and mirrors.
