I didn't assume you made the thread because I know that you have started seeing the light about Sam. As you know, I totally disagree that building around Sam is a viable path. It isn't viable because of his contract status and it especially isn't viable because of his terrible play on the field, injury history and lack of leadership/fire.
You gotta love the pat answers Sam supporters throw out, especially when it's blatantly obvious that they have done little or no homework or have given little or no objective thought to the issue. It's just a knee-jerk emotional reaction from them. They love him, he was a great prospect in their opinions, and so he has to be the guy. It has to be the Jets' fault that he has played so poorly rather than Sam's. Just changing the HC and offense will magically fix everything. Fairy tale level thinking.
It would be a risk, but it is viable meaning you can build around Sam with elite prospects. If he plays well, then you pay him. It all worked out. If he doesn't play well though, then it is a HUGE mistake, that I say is a fireable offense. So does Douglas really want to risk everything to keep Sam? I don't think so.
I think the ship has sailed on this idea. In 3 years, he has not shown enough to build around. With a new CS in place and a GM who didn't draft him, it's best for all parties to move on and start fresh with a new QB.
Maybe the phrase "build around Sam" isn't quite right. Maybe what JD and Saleh might be considering as an option is to build a team that has Sam. Even the most fervent Sam fans have to realize that the ceiling has been lowered dramatically. Currently the hope is that he can end up as a game manager. I'm sure that JD and Saleh have that as their hope if they decide to pass on a QB at 2. Maybe they see the current available QB's in the draft as not being a good fit for us. That's not to say that they won't be successful QB's in their career - just that maybe our situation isn't a good one for the prospects. Maybe they see another path that includes building the best team they can with Sam at the helm currently but always looking for other options to shake out. Whether that be drafting a QB in the future. Signing one as a FA. Trading for one. There are more than one path to getting your QB. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
But less experience, im not saying keeping sam is what i want, but hes been in the league 3 years. I still think it is very very possible we keep sam and draft a qb. Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
Are you saying the Fields has less experience than Sam? If so, well of course he does. Sam has been in the NFL for 3 years and Fields is just leaving college. Those 3 years haven't helped Sam, however. He seems to have learned nothing, and to have lost confidence and regressed, so imo those 3 years experience mean nothing. They have the same amount of experience at the collegiate level.
What blows my mind is that even if Sam improves hugely next year he'll still have 3 awful seasons and 1 good one, and it's very unlikely he'll improve significantly. Even if he did, would we feel comfortable hitching our wagon longterm to a guy who's played terribly for 75% of his career? It just makes no sense from any angle.
A lot of factors need to be weighed. 1. How does the FO grade this QB class? If they grade them elite then we likely will draft one. 2. What can we get trading the number 2 pick? Can we get a 1st next, year, a top 10 pick this year and at least a second this year? 3. What we can get for trading Sam? 2 second round picks are equal to a first next year and a second this year. That would be hard to turn down. I like Wilson but I have no idea how JD has any of Wilson, Fields or Lance graded. He might be better off trading the 2 pick for a high 1st next year and a top ten this year. This might allow us to take one of the top 2 WRs, draft a guard while signing one of the big RTs and build a decent OL. Then sign a stop gap veteran QB and trade Sam giving JD more ammo to trade up next year. I like Sam and in a more QB friendly system he might thrive, regain his confidence and grow into a good QB. But, he is damaged goods and has not recovered mentally from the beatings. I don't see a QB recovering quickly from the abuse he took. He would be best served sitting for a year or two on a good team while getting his confidence back. While we might get a 2023 comp pick for him if he leaves in FA the smart move seems to be trade him this year.
We have to rebuild this year, period. Its less a question of giving Sam one more chance as it is having him place hold the QB position until next season when we have a strong enough team to focus on getting a QB. Right now we have the resources to start building a solid core. No giving up picks for players, no spending valuable resources on a QB. We need to start infusing this team with all pros at key positions. On offense that means o-line and WR. Forget trying to bring a new QB into our mess. Clean up the mess this year and get a QB next year.
Averages are dangerous though. It's easy to think he will only average $27.5M a year, but he will never actually cost that. We would get one really good value year and then two where he costs $8M and $10M more than that.
The fallacy of your argument is that you put the entire failure on Darnold, when in fact the majority of it is on shitty coaching and talent around him. The fact that Darnold went from "OK for a rookie considering he's on a shitty team" to "Worst QB in the league" over that time proves that it wasn't Darnold's lack of talent, but the other factors that dragged him down. Last night's SB underscores what a terrible OL and game plan does to even a future HOF QB, and those are the conditions Darnold has had to play in for 3 years. The fact is that we have no real idea of what he can do because of those conditions. Now, regardless of fualt or blame, the question is: is it wise to go forward as Darnold being the presumptive QB? I have no idea what Douglas thinks aboiut this, nor does anyone else here know, so all the "The Jets are definitely going to draft a QB" pronouncements are just wishful thinking. If it were me, I'd go with keeping Darnold and drafting his replacement at #2 and letting them compete for the job. I would assume that Darnold might well win that battle at first, and so the rookie could sit and learn as Mahomes did, but then hopefully prove he's better than Sam and has a higher ceiling, again like Mahomes did. But can we please stop pushing the false narrative that Darnold had good conditions to play in and therefore his failure proves he's a terrible QB?
I get what youre saying, but im mostly saying is Fields still has to get to thw pro curve. So do we really want to restart with a guy who is going to be similar to Sam? Im not saying one waybor the other, I like Wilson, but at that point, just build inside out like Douglas wants to do Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
This isn't a bad idea, but the problem is that you might not be able to get as good a QB prospect next year (or the year after) without having to use additional assets to move up in that draft. So ti really depends on what Douglas thinks about this year's QB class vs. the future along with his ability to get one of those QBs in the future. As an "armchair GM", and not having the knowledge and data available like an actual GM, I say take your QB at #2 and work at building up those other areas you mention with the remaining picks (hopefully having addressed a few of them already in FA). And then next year do the same without having to get a QB at that point. As for throwing the new QB into a less than finished project, there's no need to do that. If they still have Darnold, then play him, and if they don't they can sign a stopgap vet to play that role.
Excellent job laying out the options/framework. 1. I can't imagine the FO not grading this QB draft class elite. There are 4 QBs that are worth of being drafted top 10 (one of them is considered a generational QB prospect, and several respected sources including a former NFL QB have rated Wilson better than Lawrence) ,and two more who could be drafted in the bottom of the 1st round/top of the 2nd. If that's not elite, then I don't know what is. Next year's class is DEFINITELY not elite. There is only 1-2 QBs right now that appear to be top prospects. There could be 1-2 others who are considered 1st round picks, but not top 10 right now. The other "top" QBs who will possibly be in next year's draft class all have major flaws in their games based on what I've been reading. 2. IMO this shouldn't even be a consideration. QB is THE most important position and we are in desparate need of a QB. I get the allure of trading down and getting a haul of draft picks, but that's being a bit Maddenesque, greedy and unrealistic in terms of bypassing taking a QB in this great QB draft class. While it's possible we could trade down a little and still get Lance, that's very risky, and not worth it imo. 3. Unless they plan on keeping Sam as the veteran QB and letting the rookie sit for a year, I think the plan should be to trade him now. With multiple teams calling to inquire about his availability, his value will never be higher for the Jets. If the Jets keep him and by some miracle he plays very well in 2021, he could simply walk as a FA and the Jets only get a bottom of the 3rd round compensatory pick at best. Now they can possibly get at least a 2nd round pick, and maybe even a low 1st round pick. Also, whatever round the pick is in, it should be of more value now to the Jets than one next year. After all, the sooner they get players on board, getting them learning the system and developing them the better, especially on offense. IMO the bold doesn't make sense. If one has done any reading on the QB class in 2022, then one knows that it is nowhere as good or as deep as this year's class. So from that standpoint alone, it makes no sense. When one considers that we're sitting at #2 this year and can get which ever QB we want and don't have to waste draft capital trading up to get a QB, it makes a lot less sense. That would be repeating the mistake of 2017 and 2018. We can take a QB in this draft, and still draft an OG, sign a RT and/or an OG in FA, draft a quality WR and/or sign one in FA. NONE of those things are contingent upon rolling with Sam or trading down. Next year's draft class is supposed to have several blue-chip DE/Edge Rushers, that's where any trading up needs to happen to add one of them. We need to get our new QB now as the system is being installed, so he can learn it, develop chemistry and timing with his offensive teammates, so that they will be ready to make some serious noise in 2022. There's no way (IMO) that JD and Saleh should be willing to risk wasting a year or risk their careers on "might" or "maybe" as regards Sam Darnold. He is definitely damaged goods. I totally agree that I don't see him recovering quickly or here. I think he needs a change of scenery, and I think he needs to sit wherever he is traded. JD supposedly really likes Sam. If so, then he needs to do him a solid by trading him somewhere that Sam has a chance to recover and to thrive. The pressure on Sam here in 2021 would be incredible. When added in with learning a new offense, and trying to fix his flaws, I think it would be overwhelming for him, and would give him zero chance of succeeding. He needs to go somewhere where there will be no immediate pressure on him. Where he can focus on learning and fixing his flaws, not having to play or to win immediately.
well the bucs gave some credibility to the idea of building your team first and then pluck your QB from the heap and plug him in.
Literally no one is saying this, it's a straw man you've created. The argument has always been that Darnold's been SO bad, like historically bad, that even in a much better situation he wouldn't be good enough. Enough with the nonsense. His ceiling is game manager. That's not good enough to win a Super Bowl 99% of the time.
funny how things work out - the jets ineptness to field talent around darnold is causing some teams to consider rolling the dice and overpaying for him in a trade. do think a second rounder is in the bag. not quite sure about a first.
