All you have to do is look at the Minnesota game to understand the difference. Mangini and Schottenheimer executed a plan to attack the weakness of the Viking defense, and won the game handily. If Herm were here, we would have run the ball for three and a half quarters and been stuffed consistently and lost that game. We are a better team with Mangini and we will be much more successfull than any team with Herm. Herm is not all bad. He runs an extremely conservative team that does not make mistakes, chews up the clock and keeps games close. It is a philiosphy almost designed to be .500. And his record shows that. A few years we got some breaks and a couple extra games fell our way and we finished with a winning record. He does however have some really big weaknesses. He is a terrible in-game coach, terrible clock mamager, and he does not really game plan to the extent most coaches do. He plays his game each week, and challenges the other team to beat you. All that aside, here is the really important point and the reason Herm will crash and burn in KC. For the first four years, Herm had pretty solid buy-in from his players. He had the luxury of playing the veterand year in and year out and that bred loyalty among our core. With the buy in, the team played hard and followed the Herm philosophy and had some success. But never a lot of success. Here is the problem though. Over the 5 year stint with us, it was pretty much shown that the Herm philosophy is unlikely to get you to a super bowl. Couple that with the fact that he turned a dynamic offense into a run first ball control offense and you get a team in KC that DOES NOT buy into the Herm philosophy. Without that, his style of play has NO chance of success. Things will get worse and worse in KC until he is fired in a year or two. In terms of the Jets, it is difficult to describe how much more confidence I have in this staff, and how much better in evey area - coaching, game planning, personnel, cap manouvers, in-game adjustments, clock management, etc.... this staff is than Herms. So glad he is gone. P.S. What he did last year was pathetic. Mangini would never throw in the towel like Herm did last year.
You missed the point. KC hasn't had that many injuries this season (no more than a normal team). The players KC are missing are due to other factors (retirement and FA). Its actually quite remarkable that they haven't had more injuries since they have a lot of old players.
For most of last year, I was on UNC's side of this. While "you are what your record says you are" -- Herm's shortcomings drive you nuts. Total inability to manage the clock or to learn how to manage the clock. Inability to adjust. Seemingly not knowing the rules or what was going on ... I do not think he is a good coach at all. Conservative play on both sides of the ball--always--especially on defense. I
I don't think most of those stats indicate good or bad coaching. Look at our rankings this year. The only one of the stats that you posted that we are better at this year is offensive points per game. The rest of the stats we are below Herm's average. I don't think we were all that talented. 2001 we could run but couldn't pass, and we were nothing special on defense. We managed to win a lot of ugly games that year. 2002 we had a lot of weapons in the passing game, but we had a banged up Curtis Martin that year and didn't really run the ball well. I thought the talent on our defense was dreadful but we were able to hide it a little, though it got really exposed again in 2003. 2004 was probably our most talented all around team, but down the stretch we had an injured QB playing that really limited things. I still would have liked to see what we couldhave done with a healthy Chad. But I think those stats show that we really weren't that talented, but we found a way to be a pretty good team overall when Herm was here. Mangini is doing the same thing, but an even better job of it, taking a team that isn't really good at any one thing but finding a way to hide those weaknesses and win games.
Possibly. But his second indictment would have to be his complete lack of knowledge of the game of football and lack of experience in runnning one side of the ball. Fact is, no matter what the debate, there are often a few straglers who are just different and no matter what will stick to some outrageous argument.. What it comes down to is Herm had 1 more friend to give him a job. Prediction: Herm will HC his last game within the next 3 years That's when this debate will crumble, when Herm leads KC to 3 more incredibly mediocre, up and down years filled with memorable coaching gaffes, dumb looks, and interesting press conferences. Maybe they squeek into the playoffs, maybe they don't... I'll be here. Dec 2009.
Every time I read threads like this I am relieved Herm is in KC. I don't think they will make the playoffs next year either, or the year after, if there is a year after.
The thing with coaches is that they can really only do so much to help you win a game; they can only be as good as the talent around them lets them to be. Some coaches (like Mangini) play to players' strengths and make schemes that help to make overall average players stand out together as a unit. However, coaches can, of course, lose it all for you with some stupid decisions. Herm's clock management and other flaws did this for us on numerous occasions. His choice to play the higher salaries over promising youngsters (like Cotchery) hindered the development to the team to the point where once the old guys who were getting all the playing time go hurt, no one else was tried and true for the positions. Don't get me wrong, he's far from the worst coach in the league. However, he's still below average in my eyes and I'm nore than glad that he's out of town and ruining KC's previously breathtaking offense.
I don't think there's a badge for an officer on probation, but perhaps this probation officer badge will make you feel useful!
To discuss a few of the points made 1. That if Chad had stayed healthy, the Jets would have done as well last season as they had in previous seasons.... Possibly. Last year was going to be a bad year no matter what. You can't be down to your 3rd quarterback that early and win games much. It just won't happen. Though KC destroying us week one 27-7 opening week (and it wasn't even that close) was a very bad start... 2. That Mangini's TC has made the Jets more conditioned I would have to count this as a yes. The only time the Jets started out fast under Herm was 2003, and we stumbled mightily down the stretch. Although Cinvis is right on a few points. Strength and conditioning can only do so much. A lot of it falls on the player and a lot of it falls on luck. At this point in the year, Mangini-critics were saying we'd be falling apart with injuries and tiredness, but that has turned out to be false. 3. That Mangini has had much less talent to win with. Definitely true. The Jets have 2 rookies on the offensive line, 2 guys who are aging veterans (especially Kendall), and an average player in Moore. They have a 2nd year 6th round pick at HB, a 4th rounder this year, and 2 decent veterans at HB. There is no running game to speak of, the receivers have actually declined last year in terms of personnel, yet the passing game has improved mightily. The only time our passing game was ever this good was in 2002. The defense is learning a brand new system, one which our best player isn't suited well for, and our other stud player in Abraham is gone. Basically, I think that Herm isn't a bad coach. The results have been there for him when he has a quarterback. When he doesn't have one, he sucks. Same with a lot of coaches. The main problem with Herm is that I saw no adjustments from Herm. He would never deviate from his gameplan, whereas Mangini changes it week to week. He was conservative at all times, where Mangini has been aggressive more often than not. I prefer aggression to conservatism, and Herm never adjusted in his tenure as coach. Hopefully Mangini becomes a better coach as he gets more used to being an HC. Herm is still the same guy he always was.
Another thing about the young players developing: some of that has to do with the drafts being bad, some of it has to do with Herm. We were becoming one of the oldest teams in the NFL under Herm, at least among key players. Under Mangini, it appears that we're getting a better mix. It's only his first year though, so he has a few years to mold the team the way he wants...
I predicted the Jets would win 9 to 10 games and possibly make the playoffs this year prior to the season. That prediction was mostly based on one key factor, the subtraction of Herm Edwards. I'm not on the Mangini is a great HC or even a better HC than Edwards at this point. Winning 9 or 10 games in this league with this schedule doesn't prove much to me yet although the direction of the team, the player development, the condition of the team, the creative in game adjustments and the overall direction of the team seems to be very positive, it doesn't mean that Manginin is going to be an elite NFL HC. Herm Edwards is by no means an elite NFL coach and after 6 years has shown no sign of becoming one. Herm last year threw in the towel on the Jets prior to the season since he wanted out. The team was completely unprepared to compete out of the gate. That's a sign of a me first person who puts himself ahead of the team and his players. It shows a lack of loyalty and it's unproffessional, sign of a HC who is not going anywhere. There is nothing wrong with wanting a better job and a better place for your family, but there is a way to do it without sacrificing the players that have made you successfull. Herm almost killed Pennington last year and did end Martin and Fiedlers careers by not having an OL in place that was prepared to start the season. Mawae and Chad couldn't even execute a snap at the start of last season. That was a big indication of a coaching staff that had given up on the players prior to the season even starting. After 6 years in the NFL and coming from the Dungy coaching tree, I'm convinced that Herm is a mediocre NFL HC who is going to need to step in Chanel No. 5 smelling shit to win a SB. This is a guy who believes the defensive backfield is more important than an Offensive Line. He has killed 3 QB, Curtis Martin and probably will do the same to LJ. That said the NFL is full of mediocre retread HC which means a guy like Herm will get lots of opportunities to prove me wrong. Maybe after 15 or 20 years we can count up his rings and we can see who is right on his one. So far he is 0 for 5 and working on 0 for 6. Mangini has a lot to prove before being considered a top NFL HC. Is he better than Herm? That will be determined over the next few years. He has made a few mistakes this year but he has done a lot right. The fact is there are very few great coaches in the NFL, most of them are solid football guys, who are well organized and work there ass off and survive. This is a debate that will be decided over time. Herm looks to be into his 6th year of proving he isn't a great one. Mangini is in his first year. Let's see if he even survives for 6 year in this league before saying he is an elite HC or even a better HC than the overwhelmingly mediocre Herm Edwards.
I'm no Herm basher by any means BUT clearly Eric Mangini is a better HC..I think part of Herms problem was his need to be buddy-buddy with players..That might work early on but it is absolutely the wrong approach..Favoritism is another bad trait Herm had..If the boss ain't pushin you ain't producing..Chad is playing well because he knows Mangini might sit him down any second..Everyone job is a temporary thing so that always keeps you hustling and wrapped tight whether its the NFL or the office..Ditka,Lombardi,Parcells,Landry while all had good relationships with their players.. no one was buddy-buddy..I am not comparing EM to those 3 BUT he has the right idea and Herm does not.
You know I remember your post prior to the start of the season so naturally big kudos & Happy Holidays to you That is why I was anti Herm from the second he was hired & why I had NO HOPE while he was our HC.
Herm is a good leader, but not a very good coach. He has good organizational skills, but makes bad game-day decisions. He can put together a fundamentally sound approach, but can't game plan for a specific opponent. He has loyalty for his players, but allows this loyalty to affect his judgment on personnel moves. He recognizes his shortcomings, but can't successfully implement a corrective action. He will never be a bad coach (i.e. Kotite), but he will never be a Super Bowl champion either. Every season he has made the playoffs, it just as easily could have gone the other way. A little luck goes a long way...and this has helped the myth of his quality as a coach. Great coaches don't require luck. They win if luck is on their side or not. Mediocre coaches win when things fall their way. Bad coaches lose regardless of the circumstances. DbJ
Thanks for the kind words Champ, best to you and your's, tis the season for peace, health and a SB run.
You bet I think when you made that post I really thought you were fruitier then a fruit cake. I knew anybody was better then Herm but this is really a wow of a ride. It will be very disappointing to watch NE beat Jax tomorrow & then for us to lay a big egg on Monday nite
The wise among us must realize that there are people out there that Still believe OJ is innocent..... But, I can't have too much respect for anything else they say. That's just me but, If you can't see the vast improvement in coaching from what we had to what we have.. Even with a rookie OC, then there's little hope NFL knowledge wise. You would be hardpressed to find a rival fan who wouldn't love Herm to have stayed here for the next 10 years and tread mediocrity.
