State of the Receivers

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Ajitator, May 10, 2014.

  1. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    An H-Back basically a player who lines up in like a Tight End but back off the line of scrimmage. Much the way one WR is a Split End (the WR who lines up right on the line) and the Flanker (the WR who lines up a couple feet back off the line of scrimmage, usually the faster more athletic WR). The H-Back is like the flanker, he plays off the LoS and is usually more athletic than a traditional tight end. His responsibilities are primarily receiving, though he has to occasionally lead block for a run play or pick up a blitz in pass protection. Modern receiving TE's are close to H-Backs than traditional TE's, but when an analyst uses the phrase (if they're using it correctly) they are referring to a modern receiving TE who also happens to be a solid lead blocker in a run play. They are more versatile than a pure receiving TE or a pure lead blocking Full Back.
     
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  2. TonyMaC

    TonyMaC Well-Known Member

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    so we'e looking for Amaro in that roll right? that sounds right up his alley.
     
  3. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    Sort of, he has a lot of value as a versatile guy. He is less athletic than Ebron, but has much more intensity and football passion. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because Ebron is more athletic that Amaro is not exceptionally athletic for his size, he is just not on the straight up freak level Ebron is. EDIT- Tony, I didn't mean to make it sound like you are making that assumption, it's just a general statement.

    This is as good a spot as any to talk about the most basic X's and O's of the receiver position.

    Remember, in an offensive formation you always have 7 guys on the line and 4 guys off the line. There are many reasons that the 5 main offensive linemen are grouped in the fashion that they commonly are; First and foremost because 5 of your linemen are not eligible receivers, and as a result keeping those 5 guys lined up tight is generally the most versatile and efficient way to block. The 2 "offensive linemen" who are eligible receivers are actually the "offensive ends." In nearly all pro-offenses for decades, the most productive way of utilizing these "offensive ends" is with one split end, and one tight end.

    Because in most pro offenses you must maintain the real threat of a run, it is important to keep an end tight on the line, plus it is important to have a receiver who can effectively catch passes over the middle of the field. Usually a bigger guy who has the ability to take a hit is the best at this, and as he is right up on the line defensive players will want to push him around as he tries to start his route, he has to have the strength to fight that. Thus the modern "TE" position.

    -There are plays where you line up both "offensive ends" tight on the line (mostly running plays they call 2 TE sets nowadays,) but in the bulk of plays you don't want to sacrifice the ability to attack the outside of the field with a pass. 2 "offensive ends" lined up tight on a pass play would generally be attacking the same area of the field, and are thus not overly efficient. As a result, you usually split one of them out wide, and call them a split end. You want your split end to be tough and strong, because if he is not a defense can effectively take him out of the game by putting a strong defensive back right up against him on the line. You are looking for a a guy with a combination of strength, quickness, and athleticism, but doesn't have to be so big and tall as the tight end. This player is generally 1 of the starting WR's on a modern pro team.

    There are 4 eligible ball carriers who are back off the line, they are "offensive backs." They also all qualify as eligible receivers. In modern pro offenses, with players who can accurately throw passes all over the field, less running backs are used than ever, but even years ago when nearly every play had 2 RBs and 2 TE's, one of the eligible ball carriers was spread out wide with intention of blocking wide or catching a forward pass. Because this player lines up off the line, he is guaranteed some space before a defensive player can touch him. This is the best chance for the offense to get a guy on a relatively straight path deep behind the defense, and thus earned the name flanker (because like a military flanking maneuver, you sort of go around the defense.) This is usually the fastest player you have, and does't need to be as strong as the split end because he can try and use speed to avoid the DB. This player is generally the other starting WR on a modern pro team

    So, you would have 3 more eligible ball carriers to work with. Historically, Quarterbacks, Halfbacks, and Fullbacks all commonly ran the ball a lot, and in high school and college this is still true on some teams. As the technique and skill required to throw the ball around a lot has become more and more prevalent, the increase in efficiency has become apparent if the passing game is done well. With the dynamic athleticism now so prevalent in the pro's, you can use so much more of the defensive backfield as a potential attack point in a pass play. This has caused the QB position to become highly specialized as a passer. The athleticism and potential receiving ability of modern RB's has diminished the value of a lead blocker as a primary role in an offense. It is still an important skill set in many run heavy offenses, but in pass heavy offenses (which now constitute a large percentage of the league) they just don't garner significant playing time. Teams have discovered that it's productive taking a guy who has what would be closer to a WR skill set and placing him just back off the LoS in the "slot" between the offensive line and either a flanker or split end (usually split end because if he is on the flanker's side he ends up attacking the same space as the TE). A guy who is quick, strong and compact is a good fit here, because he will often take hits over the middle, and is used not as a major threat but to help consistently move the chains. Thus the emergence of the slot receiver over the Fullback.

    Any time you have a WR who can effectively play more than 1 of these 3 positions (split end, flanker, slot) that is great, because gives you options.

    Eric Decker is clearly our primary Split End WR. He is strong enough to get through press coverage, and athletic enough to make plays running numerous different routes. He is our primary receiving threat, because of his ability to run just about every short and intermediate route to perfection, and has solid speed but not the kind you want for a pro flanker. He also has excellent quickness, and can be used productively in the slot on occasion to take advantage of smaller nickel CB's. David Nelson is the second string player at the split end position. He is maybe a hair taller, but significantly less dynamic in every way than Eric Decker. Our 6th round pick, Quiny Enundwa, is a raw but more dynamic than David Nelson. Nelson and Enunwa are going to be in direct competition for that second split end spot. Enunwa has the speed to be an occasional weapon at the flanker position as well, with mid 4.4 speed.

    Right now Stephen Hill is our top flanker. Say what you want about him, but he has the great combination of speed and height that makes him the ideal flanker, because he can get up high for deep jump balls as well as just running behind the defenses. You want him to be able to run all the intermediate and deep routes well, and he is developing and getting better and better at this. We signed Jacoby Ford primarily as a kick returner, but he would have been our #2 flanker. He is small and quick and would ordinarily be effective in the slot, but with the amount of injuries he has sustained he is not a good candidate to be consistently hit by safeties and LB's. Our draft pick Shaq Evans is in direct competition for the #2 flanker position, and I have to imagine he will win out since Ford's injury history and the drafting of another kick returner makes his roster spot pretty unsafe.

    Jeremy Kerley is our top slot threat. He is compact and quick, tough enough to take some hits, and decently elusive with the ball in his hands. Behind him, Jalen Saunders is our #2 slot threat. Decker is a slot threat as well, but because of his value outside we won't see him there often. Saunders is even smaller than Kerley but he is an exceptionally tough player for his size. Saunders will compete for starting kick returner and will push Kerley. Kerley is scheduled to be a FA, so Saunders will need to show he is ready for the primary slot role in 2015.

    The combination of size and athleticism is only getting better over the years, and teams are able to turn TE sized guys into better and better receiving threats. The old TE basically blocked on most plays and caught 4-10 yard passes using their size. New TE's have guys that same size flying down the middle of the field and making acrobatic catches. The H-back position, which I described above, was originally a team trying to get their best players on the field at the same time. Back when the Full Back was a major ball carrier, and the better of the two RB's on this particular team was the FB, they subbed out the halfback on a lot of plays in order two bring in a second, more athletic tight end. They kept in the primary blocking TE, and used this eligible ball carrier in a far more receiver like role than the halfback was used. The main idea behind the H-Back is to have a versatile player who can help pass protect or get quick passes against teams who have a dominant outside pass-rush. The true H-Back position is by far the most versatile player on the field, as he may often line up on the line as a true TE, he may line up like a FB as a lead blocker, but most of all runs receiving routes out of the backfield. The last highly productive player to do this was Aaron Hernandez.

    Jeff Cumberland is huge, but from what I've seen of him he is not a highly effective blocker in the run game or the passing game. He is primarily an in line receiving threat, but has excellent speed for a guy his size and can get deep much better than almost anyone his size. Jace Amaro is very quick for a guy his size, and is not quite the same speed threat as Cumberland but he can play the short area of the field very well for that reason. He can be a threat on deeper balls simply because of his height advantage over most DB's who would cover him. We will see if he can be productively be used as a true H-Back, but if he can that is a great strategy to use against teams who will be trying to unsettle Geno with a heavy pass rush. Against other teams his primary role may be in the slot, if they do not a have a DB with the combination of coverage skills and size to match up well against him. The good thing about Amaro is you can keep him on the field and utilize his mismatch ability in a number of different ways.
     
    #63 MaximusD163, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  4. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    So even though Amaro is called a TE by name, he may be heavily used as a massive slot receiver, or potentially an H-Back. Since you can only use 2 "offensive ends" and Decker will be seeing numerous snaps at split end, that leaves room for 1 true TE in most offensive formations. I'm interested to see how we can utilize Amaro and Kerley at the same time. An interesting point is that there will almost definitely be plays where Decker and Hill are playing WR, Cumberland is the TE, and Amaro is in the slot, with Chris Johnson as the lone RB. That means we have 4 receivers on the field, not a one under 6'3". That is an interesting situation for some screen passes or counter plays to CJ, and it's a way we can create some space for CJ to do his thing. Amaro has the combination of size to fight press coverage and quickness to properly utilize that slot position on pass plays as well.
     
    #64 MaximusD163, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  5. Ajitator

    Ajitator Well-Known Member

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    Great post, The only thing I might add is that I think we'll see a little bit of Decker in every position. Nelson lined up in the slot a decent amount last season and was where he was very productive with Geno. Wouldn't be surprised to see Marty line up Evans and Hill outside and Decker in the slot with Amaro inline, Especially in redzone situations.

    That's a lot of big bodies for the defense to deal with.
     
  6. hastygreen

    hastygreen Well-Known Member

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    Nice breakdown Max, I was thinking maybe we carry an extra WR this year just for the guy that will "primarily" deal with specials, Saunders or Ford. I think Nelson is out 4th and the loser of the Hill/Evans battle the 5th and the 6th spot going to whoever wins from the rest of the guys. Gates is a goner and I think Salas can't be sent to practice squad anymore so I can see him being gone as well. I think we might have as many as 3Wr on our practice squad from whatever shakes out of the tree.
     
  7. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we will definitely see Decker at all 3 positions but probably at flanker the least. Nelson is a slot guy as well, in fact he is actually better suited to it in some situations. Decker is a better split end than Nelson because Decker has enough speed to be considered a threat to get behind a CB on a deep route, whereas Nelson doesn't really. Nelson is a quite reliable but has a low ceiling, which is why I have a feeling Enunwa will beat him out in camp. Since neither Nelson or Enunwa would be a major part of the passing attack anyway, I have a feeling they'll want to keep around the draft pick with some upside. As far as the red zone package you mentioned, I don't think they'd bring Cumberland off the field to get Evans in there. Because Amaro can be used in the slot and Cumby in-line, they can have their two top WR's outside in Decker and Hill. I could see them putting Kerley in the slot though, and replacing Hill out wide with Amaro as the split end and making Decker the flanker.
     
  8. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Some part of me wishes we could have gotten that deal to move up in the 2nd, but I am glad they made a strong effort to increase the amount of talent at the receiver position. I would rather have multiple options where we can spread out the defense then just 1 or 2 guys. It opens up the running game and the seams for Amaro to do some major damage down the middle of the field.
     
  9. Ajitator

    Ajitator Well-Known Member

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    All of those seem like very viable, Potentially potent combinations. The fact that we can even have a conversation about who should be playing / most potent in certain packages speaks volumes about the level of improved talent we have at the position. Way to go Idzik.

    Geno must be excited.
     
  10. TonyMaC

    TonyMaC Well-Known Member

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    wow. thorough. :confused:

    I appreciate the manner of which you separated the rookie WR's for their respective competition. i was wondering about that but the way you put it makes sense.

    Decker looks and feels like a classical X and that should be where he's situated most downs, but as others are stating one wonders how effective he would be in another role like in the slot once he's established? Nelson's a reliable possession man his size and lack of speed puts him square in this end, but I'm sure he can play opposite Decker at any time just as easily.

    The Z should be a competition between Hill, Evans and Mr.Salas,the best two get a spot. (in a perfect world Hill and Evans) might have been the perfect place for a Lee or Matthews to develop but c'est la vie. might be our biggest weakness unless Hill turns a switch.

    I think its very likely an extra spot is made for a ST contributor who plays Y. Kerley's practically got a spot sown up, Ford and/or Saunders will likely not see much time on the offensive side of ball to spell Kerely, because we've got two big guys that can do it in Decker and Amaro.

    I had a feeling we may not have gotten that surefire tope end WR threat, and we didn't but we can get away with what we have at WR nonetheless due to the addition of Decker and a set of able contributors like JK and Nelson. (and the MAJOR weapon in Amaro) MM should have enough to get creative over at least, now its up to Smith to find his man on a consistent basis.

    and BTW between yours and my posts a 10k character limit was reached and I couldn't replay for a second. thats... never happened before, lol.
     
  11. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know we all cheer for the guys like Salas to make their mark but I'd bet my car that Salas is not on the team week 1.
     
  12. MaximusD163

    MaximusD163 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure he is, last year was ugly. Watching the games, especially early in the season, it's obvious Holmes lost a step in terms of speed. Holmes is really the definition of a guy who can play flanker but not split end (at least vs press coverage) because of his smaller stature but great speed and athleticism. Hill has the size and strength to play split end, and he seemed to be doing a decent job early on in the season. The problem is that because Holmes lost some speed and dynamic ability, we didn't have a viable flanker. Josh Cribbs added some speed but obviously he can't be relied on as the primary flanker. Holmes still caught a few deep balls but only against very poor secondaries, and he could be taken out of the play by a solid CB. Signing Nelson was the Jets deciding to use Hill primarily as the flanker while Holmes was injured and using Nelson as the split end/slot possession guy. The lack of depth at receiver was a major issue, as Holmes, Hill, Kerley, Cumberland, and Winslow all missed time with injury or suspension. Instead of reaching or giving up picks in a trade, the Jets took excellent talents in the top of the draft and addressed the major depth problem in the receiving corp. Geno probably has a boner right now, and probably not a big one judging from those pics that leaked earlier this year lol.
     
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  13. NYJets17

    NYJets17 Well-Known Member

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    Ever since last year I've been hoping the Jets would send a pick to the Rams for Stedman Bailey, he's been Geno's receiver since High School and I think that would really help Geno.
    But Stedman just got suspended for 4 games for drug policy. Still think it'd be a good move

    Overall tho, with the receivers we have, Geno,Vick,Tahj,Matt, whoever should have a lot easier time moving the ball than last year. Smoove Cash aka the Shaqtus is definitely my guy this year so im hoping he has a good one.
     
  14. pclfan

    pclfan Well-Known Member

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    One guy who (to me) looked good when he played last year and seems to run good patterns is Greg Salas. The odds are with the draft picks he won't make the team but if he gets any kind of a chance in training camp he might be one of our best five receivers and a guy who can play in the WCO.
     
  15. Footballgod214

    Footballgod214 Well-Known Member

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    Good post Ajitator. I have a slightly diff view.

    First, I think Ford was signed during FA not knowing what we would get in the draft. Rex doesn't want Kyle/Kerley returning kicks/punts and wants a 'little speed guy'. Getting Saunders kind of means Ford will probably become a camp casualty, as he should.

    I can see Hill traded or a late cut for 3 reasons: 1) He catches with his body, not his hands, plus he jumps up to catch the ball in his stomach area. This alone will kill his YAC in the long run. 2) Hill can not catch the ball over his shoulder while on a full speed run. He just can't. He prefers to turn around and catch the ball in his stomach, which negates his speed advantage. 3) He seems brittle.

    Nelson will most likely get the #2 job opposite Decker or at least this is how camp will start out.
     
  16. Ajitator

    Ajitator Well-Known Member

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    I spoke to the body catching thing in an earlier thread. I think they put a lot of emphasis on him not dropping balls last offseason which led to him focusing a lot on making sure he made the catch. I think / hope as he gets comfortable on the field he'll start to use his length more and catching with his hands. He did it well in college with his limited action.
    RE: #2 - Stephen Hill - Geno Smith
    RE: #3 - Stephen Hill - Dolphins

    Besides that I don't think there's any chance they out right cut him this season barring a serious injury. His raw speed / size allows him a roster spot to develop while he's cheap.

    Nelson isn't anywhere as good as some people on this board make him out to be. I promise.
     
    #76 Ajitator, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
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  17. TonyMaC

    TonyMaC Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about that... I'm just now looking at the film, Nelson makes catches with far better technique than Hill once he got acclimated to the offense. despite being a few clicks south of what Hill CAN be he certainly has WAY better receiving skills overall. Nelson's not a speedster but he's able to extend and make the catch if the pass is there for him, he's reliable and thats the first and last thing a player needs to be. Hill looks all kinds of uncomfortable in comparison when he manages to make a grab. with that in mind you're explanation of Hill's form makes perfect sense, but if he can't break out of that shell and be the player his body tells him he could be than what good is he next to the David Nelson's of the world?

    With that I think Nelson is a better WR overall, despite Hills touted measurables I'd sooner trust Nelson to help my offense more than him any day of the week and twice on sundays.

    Hill's upside and price is what keeps him on the team after the seasons he's had, but thats officially meaningless starting this summer. I could easily see somebody with less potential being given a job over him if he can't find it in him to turn a page and gain some superior form, because the line about him being the next thomas or Megatron one day because of his physical set has worn out its welcome, august is offically "one day".

    I know you believe in him, and while skeptical I'd rather he be everything he CAN BE to help the jets and be wrong about him than him failing and having my doubts be proven right, so lets both hope he steps up huge. as of now, he's not even better than Nelson, not really.
     
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  18. TurkJetFan

    TurkJetFan Well-Known Member

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    Awesome post. Thanks for the read.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  19. deeznuts21

    deeznuts21 Member

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    Well said and I agree with a lot of the points you made. Including the option Marty has now showing multiple looks without so many substitutions. I can foresee many more two TE sets .. and with two pass catching ends added to a pass catching RB and WR's who can block .. we are in business!

    I can see all the rookies wideouts making the team if not at WR they will in special teams .. That goes for most of our rookies. Plus by the start of the season our "frail" 165lb WR will at least be close to Kerleys weight .. It was noted he was already at 175 after the combine.

    Can anyone see us signing another vet? Perhaps .. Miles Austin?
     
  20. themorey

    themorey Well-Known Member

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    I think people are really overlooking the Enunwa pick. The dude is huge at 6'2" 225lbs and ran a 4.45, but most impressive is that he scored 12 receiving TDs last year for Nebraska of all teams! The entire team only had 25 passing TDs! Plus he likes to hit and has experience on ST. I think he has a very good chance of making the team this year as the backup to Decker. In fact all 3 WR were drafted to backup current players:

    Decker / Enunwa
    Hill / Evans
    Kerley / Saunders

    These guys may not have the big names or pedigrees but they fit exactly into what the Jets want on their roster, adding speed and toughness. Just like all our other picks, the WRs are all hard working "blue-collar" players who play like Jets. Fuckin A!
     

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