I'm just talking about the first 3 they won. in 2001 and 2003 they gave up 17 points or less in 5 out of 6 games to go along with 14 turnovers. In 2004 they had 11 turnovers in 3 games, that's big time defense. Brady made plays of course but to say the defense wasn't great is foolish. Indy's defense was good in 2006, but you have to take opponents into account, they shut down an ancient Trent Green, Steve McNair and Rex Grossman while they got shredded by Brady.
BB would be a DC somewhere today if not for Brady. Manning has John Fox who made a SB w/o him and 2 title games, Manning had tony Dungy who made a conf title game w/o him. Belichick never even made a title game w/o Brady. played great in 2001 until the SB was there to be won and they folded. In 2003 they played well in the AFC playoffs but again had a meltodown in the SB this time giving up 19 4th qtr pts to the Jake Delhomme led Panthers and blowing another 4th qtr double digit lead in the SB. if we take ooponents into account the Pats runs were against: Kordell Stewart and Pitt Peyton and his chokes(remember, we shut them out) Tennessee Jake Delhomme and Carolina rookie Big ben Philly not at full strength those Qbs are why Peyton has his only SB title right now.
The whole game counts, you can't just look at a drive or two and judge on that, that's the trap the Eli Manning disciples fall into. I don't care if they gave up all 17 points in the last 10 seconds of the game, holding that Rams offense to 17 is a fantastic job. Not to mention that 7 of the Pats 20 points came directly from their defense scoring and another 10 came right after turnovers that started drives in Rams territory.
the game is 60 minutes long and sometimes longer. Great job for 3 qtrs. but when it came time to win they disappeared and were rescued by Brady. they'd have 4 SB titles if the D choked a little earlier in the last 2 SB losses.
Peyton Manning is much better than Tom Brady. I don't get how this is even a debate. Manning can't help he never had near as good of a defense as Brady has had, or near as good of a coach as Brady has had. As a QB, Peyton is better. One factor that is never mentioned: Peyton had to face Belichick 15 times. Brady has had to face far inferior coaches in those matchups.
:rofl2: It isn't much of a debate, that is how far ahead Brady is. Tony Dungy: made title game w/o Manning John Fox: made 2 title games and a SB w/o Manning(was closer to beating NE in their dynasty years w/ Jake Delhomme than Peyton was w/ the incredible talent he had in Indy) Bill Belichick: never made it as far as a title game w/o Brady. Quick comparison of BB w/ and w/o Brady: BB WITH Brady(191 games, 2001-20013 minus 1st 2 games of '01 and last 15 of '08) 148-43, 77% 11 playoff apps 11 division titles 18-7 postseason record 8 title game apps 5 SB apps 3 SB wins worst record? 9-7 BB WITHOUT Brady(113 games, 1991-1996, 2000, first 2 of '01, last 15 of '08) 51-62, 45% 1 playoff app 0 div titles 1-1 postseason record 0 title game apps 0 SB apps 0 SB wins worst season? 5-11(w/ NE the year before Brady- he was 5-13 in NE before Brady became the starter) QBs that have thrived in postseason against the great Belichick NE Ds: Jake Delhomme Jake Plummer Mark Sanchez Joe Flacco Eli Manning In one playoff game at NE Mark Sanchez has 3 TD passes and 0 INTs leading his O to 28 pts and a win. In 3 career postseason games against NE Peyton has 2 TDs and 6 INTs. In 2 career playoff games at Foxboro Peyton has 1 TD, 5 INTs and led O to TOTAL of 17 pts. Brady is the better QB by a comfortable margin, Peyton can close the gap this week and next game but Brady is well out in front.
Why does every fucking NFL thread become a pissing contest between nyjunc and someone about Brady vs Manning. There is already a thread for that!
#1 be quiet b/c no one cares what you think. #2 it is a hot topic with the matchup this week. Thanks for your understanding.
Knowing the game is 60 minutes long you'd think Brady and his record setting offenses would've waived their magic wands earlier and scored more than 14 and 17 points against mediocre to bad Giants defenses instead of waiting till the very end when they might not get the ball back.
Those mediocre/bad Giant Ds were light years better than our supposed great ones in '09/'10 and they shut down great offenses but Brady left late w/ leads in both SBs only to watch his D's blow it. That's never happened to Manning in a SB, in his DB loss he threw an INT for a TD to blow the game and the only times his D's blew late leads were in games where he needed one first down to end them and failed.
they are 2 completely different arguments. If I was arguing Mark is better you'd have a point but I argue how underrated he has been. If I was arguing Peyton sucked you'd have a point but I always talk of how he is an all time great but there are different levels of all time greats and b/c of fantasy football fans think Peyton is the best ever and better than Brady which just isn't true. This game is about winning and making plays to win, too often in the biggest games Peyton comes up small or else he'd be the best of all time.
Who cares if he had a lead, an offenses job is to score points and a defenses job is to prevent points, that's really all that matters. Brady's offenses that averaged 37 and 32 points a game those seasons were held to 14 and 17 points while his defense that averaged 17 and 21 points a game held the Giants to 17 and 20 points. Now tell me which unit did their job and which let the team down in each of those games? Those 2 SB games where he came up small against the Giants are really the only reasons he's not the undisputed greatest QB ever.
Brady last won a Super Bowl like what? 9 or 10 years ago now? Not like he is super clutch. He won 3 out of 4 SB's with complete team efforts. He never carried the Patriots. Then when the team shifted and Brady began to carry them, they have won nothing. Brady has come up small just as much, if not more, than Peyton.
some games are high scoring, some are not. w/ the game on the line in XLII Brady led his O 80 yds to take a 4 pt lead, the D then blew it. In the last one Brady didn't close it out(thanks Wes Welker) but that didn't mean the D had to allow another long TD drive to blow it. we can talk about averages all we want but these were close games that came down to making plays late and the D failed.
when did Peyton carry his team to a SB title? was it to 3 TD, 7 INT postseason of 2006 where his D allowed an AVERAGE of less than 13 PPG? they haven't won a SB since 2004 and he has been asked to do more but: Brady 2005-2012: 9-7, 56% 5 title games 2 SB apps Manning CAREER 1998-2013: 10-11, 48% 4 title games 2 SB apps and that's w/ a HUGE talent gap btw the teams.
Of course the defense could've made a play in either game and won the game and bailed out the offense but that doesn't change the fact that both games were extremely poor offensive performances. If the Giants had gotten out to leads early and both games finished with the same final scores would anyone be talking about the defense as the reason the Patriots didn't win the games? What's the difference? The offense didn't put enough points on the board to win.
but they didn't? mediocre offenses scored TDs at the biggest moment in each game to win 2 SBs. The O rescued the D in 2 of the 2 SB wins, why couldn't the D rescue the O in one of the last 2 losses?
I guess I don't understand talent, as I have always felt the Patriots were a better team than any of Peyton's Colts or Broncos teams. Having said that, as a Jets fan, I would much rather play the Patriots. I always feel there is a chance to win. Never want to play Peyton Manning. The Colts were beyond injury filled, and it took a perfect Jets effort, along with Colts WR's dropping balls, for the Jets to win 17-16 vs. the Colts in 2010. That is why I give the edge to Peyton. Football is a team game. I find Peyton to be the better QB. I don't like hypotheticals, but I wonder what he would have done if he was Belichick's QB instead of Brady?
NE had slightly more talent on D, Indy had boatloads more talent on O in most years. Colts WRs dropping balls? he led his high powered O to 16 pts at HOME and it was b/c his WRs dropped passes? which ones? if he led his O to on more 1st down he wouldn't have given mark sanchez a chance to win the game for the Jets. Interesting that you think it is harder to beat Manning than Brady. Jets vs. Brady: 6-19(1-0 in playoffs) we finished ahead of Brady's Pats ONE time in 11 seasons in AFC East(.09%) Jets vs. Manning: 6-8(2-1 in playoffs) we finished ahead of Peyton's Colts 2 times in 4 years in AFC East(50%) again, look at the Belichick career #s w/ and w/o Brady. BB would be a DC somewhere today if not for striking gold w/ Brady.
