the media has turned into show business thats why nobody knows what they are doing anymore, they just want to catch that next big story. tebow sucks
You are the idiot. You're the one trying to convince me that Tebow is actually a passing QB because of some stat sheet in college. When I point out that the Broncos chose to run a more run heavy offense to play to Tebow's strengths and get away from his horrid passin, it flies way over your head. ....and you HONESTLY think you are winning some war here because of some stat sheet he got on a stacked roster he stood no chance in hell of reaching if he played with Klein's team... :rofl: Yet the guy you are trying to convince me is actually more of a passing QB than a running QB is at the bottom of the league in passing and one of the best at running. Even helped the Broncos reach #1 in rushing. Really not a hard concept to grasp.... for most people.
Since college is what we're talking about in this thread, yep, you're right, Tebow was a passing QB in college, an elite one. We're not talking about the Broncos, we're talking about the Gators. You want to talk about the Broncos, do a search on the word "Broncos", you'll find plenty of threads to read. So, was Peyton Manning an elite passer in college, even though he was on a team that was considerably more stacked with NFL talent than Tebow's Florida teams? Either Manning wasn't, and Tebow wasn't. Or Manning was, and Tebow was. You can't have it both ways. Tebow put up considerably better, more efficient passing stats at QB in college even though he had much less NFL talent on his roster than Manning did. This isn't a trick question, but obviously you can't answer it honestly. If you say Manning wasn't an elite passer in college, based on his stats, then you look stupid. If you say Tebow wasn't an elite passer in college, based on his stats, you look even more stupid. Your problem is that your perpetual Tebow double standard is coming back around to bite you in the a**. That's why you keep trying to change the subject back to the NFL, even though this discussion started about a college comparison of 2 players the media would like us to believe were extremely similar coming out of college, even though they weren't. By the way, Collin Klein may have played with less talent on his K State team, but he was also playing against much less talent in the Big 12. - 9 defensive Big 12 players picked in 2012 draft - 25 defensive SEC players picked in 2012 draft There were 8 defensive SEC players picked in the 1st Rd. of the 2012 draft, only one less than the Big 12 had for all 7 rounds! In the 2010 draft, the year Tebow came out, there were 30 Defensive players from the SEC selected in rounds 1-7 of the draft.
You were the one that decided to make the conversation about college and college only. but I can see why you would want to omit his 3 years in the NFL when trying to make the case that Tebow is more of a passing QB. Really, I just compared the style of game Tebow and Klein play, and they look like the same thing. Tebow might have been better at passing at the college level, but he certainly isn't anywhere close to that in the NFL. Simply put, they are both running QBs who have very suspect passing. Oh, not everyone thought that about Tebow when he came out of college, but those accomplishments are now three years back in his rear view mirror. Very few will mistake him as even an average passer now, let alone an elite one. Tebow is a running QB who struggles to throw, and we now have someone coming out of college who fits that same mold. The media has taken hold on that one too, but I do think they are correct that thsese players are very similar, even if Tebow looked like he'd be something different 3 years ago. What I don't get is the media's fascination with either of them. One is on his way out of the league unless someone is still willing to take a chance, though the pickings there seem slim. The other one coming into the league will be sharing a similar fate unless he can correct the erratic passing. I still haven't figured out who the media wants to be Tebow's successor if it is Klein the media wants to attach themselves too and create a story out of, or Manti Te'o. Which one's career do you think they will destroy by keeping under the microscope? As for your last sentence... So I assume you think Tebow would get similar stats in Kansas State?
Not only vastly better than Klein, but much more. Which is all I have established in this thread. Probably safe to assume this is as close as you're going to get to an admission of what is plainly obvious about Tebow's passing performance in college, so I guess we'll just leave it at that. I don't assume anything, you're the one doing all the assuming. I simply point out the facts and the stats and let them speak for themselves, which they do perfectly well. Go back and read the end of my post again, which I edited to include SEC and Big 12 Defensive player draft stats, and it is plainly, plainly clear that Tebow played against vastly better Defenses in the SEC than Klein did in the Big 12, and still put up monster passing efficiency stats. So, we're going on several posts from you now in which you refuse to address whether or not Peyton Manning, with more NFL talent on his roster than Tim Tebow had, was an elite passer in college. I say he was. Sometimes what people won't say speaks volumes more than what they will say. Your repeated evasion is very....loud.
Yep, and you still won't admit Klein fits the description of the kind of player Tebow has been for 3 years now. ...and yet the question remains unanswered. But I understand why. You won't confirm or deny my assumption, because if you admitted it, it would be silly to say he'd do just as well in Kansas State as he did as a Gator. If you denied it, you'd be admitting my point that the talent surrounding him had very much to do with those pretty little stat sheets you cling to to convince yourself that Tebow is still a pretty good passer. But you are using TEAM stats to compare individual players and saying player X is better than player Y. Doesn't work for me because there are too many damn variables to compare team stats in a head to head comparison as if they were tennis stats. They're TEAM stats, and he was on one of the best teams in all of college football. I don't know why you keep going to Manning's stats in college either. Manning DID have a lot of talent around him in college, HOWEVER... He also backed up his skillset in the NFL... He didn't suddenly fall off the map and have a career of 47%m nor finish dead last in most major categories. Manning has proven he is an elite passer in the league that matters, the NFL, the league Tebow is currently under contract to play in as he has been for the last 3 years... and is the league Klein is trying to break into. I mean, what are you trying to say by going to Manning and asking me about his talent level. That all things being equal in college, that Tebow was the better passer than Manning? So I'm not exactly sure where you are trying to go with this. Manning and Tebow had a lot of good talent surrounding then, and they both put up pretty good numbers. But all that really does it convince me further that those stat sheets are worthless since one had a great career passing in the NFL, the other one stunk it up. Guess the stat sheets aren't that great an indication after all. ... to avoid assuming, are you telling me that Klein's current style does not pretty much look like what Tebow does RIGHT NOW? You won't answer that one either, but I know why. Who cares what Tebow was three years ago. Tebow is anything but the Gator passer he was back then. I can only guess it is because the NFL is too fast for him as a passer. as a runner, a totally different story. Tebow is an AWESOME runner. (heh, and you think I don't see that Tebow has some redeeming qualities, there's a compliment right there.)
I don't admit it because we're not talking about the NFL, and because even if we were, it still isn't true. Numbers don't lie. Tebow passed a higher % of the time in his 16 NFL starts than he did in college. Period. No wiggle room there, just pure, numerical data. We're not comparing whether he was hall of fame, incredible, pretty good, fair, bad, awful in the NFL. We're comparing whether he was primarily a running QB in college, which he wasn't. And comparing that to Klein, who also wasn't, although much closer. The only reason we're comparing the quality of his college passing is because I said he was an elite college passer and you said he wasn't. And now all you want to do is talk about the NFL to shift attention away from his college performance, which is what we were talking about in the first place. I have never on this forum shied away from talking about his NFL stats if that's what the thread was about. You, on the other hand, try at all costs to avoid talking about his college career except to say he only "looked" good because he had so much NFL talent on his team. Peyton Manning had more, is that why he "looked" good in college? You could teach dance lessons the way you're dancing around the question of whether Manning was an elite college passer. You've been all gung ho since Tebow came out of college to claim that his stats only looked good because he had a good TEAM around him. Now you claim that you don't want to compare TEAM stats, Peyton's Volunteers to Tebow's Gators? So, now we're back to comparing INDIVIDUAL Stats? Hey, works for me. Can't make this stuff up.:rofl2:
CC, I understand why you can't admit that Tebow was an elite, accurate passer in college. It's because you have staked your reputation rofl2 and argument against Tebow largely on the idea that he CAN'T throw an accurate football. Not that he is good, bad or inconsistent at it, but that he CAN'T do it. That is an empirically and intellectually false argument. But the foundation of most of your arguments against Tebow are based on false and/or misleading data and/or double standards. You will never make any headway in your arguments against him as long as you continue to lie and use a double standard as you have always done. Much better for you to just admit that he was an awesome passing QB in college but that in your opinion it hasn't translated to the NFL yet. See how easy that was? But no, you insist on beating your head up against the wall in trying to "prove" something that isn't true, so therefore it is unprovable. Good luck with that.
Who made THAT decision. I started this thread saying they were both running QBs. They are both running QBs. You decided to take it and make it about college only since that is about the only chance in hell you have at making your case that Tebow is a passing QB. Saying he passed more than he did in college does not make him a passing QB. Not when he sucks at it and running is all he is really good at since the NFL. Those pure raw numbers also have far too many variable to take then at face value. Plain and simple. It does not say he is a passing QB just becase he threw more in the NFL... and missed on a higher percentage than anyone else in the league. They were both great runners in college. Nobody says Tebow ran far more than he passed. He isn't. Look at him. No, I'm just not letting you get away with deflecting from Tebow's horrid stats talking about college, which has little to to with him sucking as a passer in the NFL. Running is about all he brings to the table, as is the case with Klein. I don't recall a tennessee squad Manning had where 10 out of 11 of his starters made the NFL, but I digress. I'm not arguing with you about his college success, because I have already admitted Tebow was actually a pretty good college player. Considering more than half in college football never see the NFL. I only pointed out that having a great team around you WILL help pad some of those stats. It just isn't indicative of what will happen when an individual player hits the NFL. I mean, check out Tom Brady's college stats and tell me how he turned out in the NFL. Some people have it for the NFL, some don't. Tebow doesn't, at least as far as passing goes. He's bad at passing and good at running. THAT makes him a runner. Not some college stat sheet with great players around him. But I never said Tebow wasn't a damn good college player. I don't know why you can't admit he had a lot of help getting those stats from having the Gators around him rather than, say... vanderbilt? Whos' dancing? I don't see the point you are trying to make. If you are saying Manning wasn't elite in college, then fine, he wasn't. that just means the stat sheets, the basis for your ENTIRE argument that Tebow is a great passer, are worthless in indicating who is really good and who isn't. I said it helped a lot. College was just right for him. He might very well be one of the better college players to play the game. Unfortunately the NFL isn't college. College success does not always mean NFL success, but Tebow is finding out all about that, wouldn't you say? But those aren't INDIVIDUAL stats, JfJets! Those are Team stats. TEAM! Just because you want to call them something else doesnt' mean they aren't still team stats. The makeup of a team matters. You are taking team stats, and using it to say player X is better than player Y. It isn't apples to apples. Tennessee was a pretty damn good team too. But you keep missing the point... on purpose... because one QB continued to show he was elite and the other flopped and is on his way out of the NFL because of it. If the stat sheet told the whole story, we'd be seeing Tebow at 66% completion in the NFL on his was to a Hall of Fame career. Since Tebow is dead last in passing, and is one of the best runners in the game, that suggest to MOST PEOPLE that Tebow is a RUNNING QB. Sure, he might have thrown more passes in the NFL than he did in college, but his best plays are on the ground, the Broncos schemed to a more run oriented offense while Tebow finishes below 50% on passes.... and you're gonna sit there and argue that Tebow is a passing QB moreso than a running QB? Put down the crack pipe!! :rofl: ...and I'm NOT saying Tebow wasn't a good or even great college player. Just saying his passing was far overrated, or else he would have delivered on that aspect of his game in the NFL. he has not.
You're taking the word "can't" in the literal sense. We've seen him hit a few. Nowhere near consistent enough for the NFL, but he has made some throws. Would you feel better if I say he "can't throw very well consistently enough for the NFL? Just easier to say he can't. It isn't a double standard to say so either when he's finishing in last place in that department, and is the biggest knock on him when people evaluate why few teams want him. ...and I've already said he was a good or even great college player. I just think his stats overrate him as elite when the had so many good players around him.
If the Jets get a 6th round pick for Tebow I'll be shocked. His career is pretty much over in the NFL.
If Peyton Manning was an elite passer in college (and he was), then Tebow was a more elite passer in college because he had less NFL talent around him than Manning and yet put up superior passing numbers, in the same tough SEC. Bottom Line: 1) Tebow was an elite passer in college, who threw far more often than he ran 2) Tebow has been an inconsistent passer in the NFL, who throws far more often than he runs To draw any other conclusion just isn't supported by statistics and facts (including facts of how many NFL draftees Manning played with versus how many Tebow played with). I know some people think it's fashionable to say that statistics lie, but no, they really don't. Lastly, when someone feels it is necessary or desirable to continually use Hyperbole and Exaggeration in order to juice their argument, it is a sure sign that their argument is a weak one. A little advice for you to consider in the future. I'm done with this thread, my point has been amply made, more than once, and backed up by enough stats to satisfy any objective person.
Bottom Line: 1. Tebow was made to look better than he actually was in college, thanks to a well built roster. If Tebow were an "elite" passer even at the college level, he would have backed that up in the NFL with something better than the worst completion percentage, worst three and out numbers, and terrible third down conversion rate. he has been anyting but elite, which supports my belief that he was overrated by being on a great college team. 2. Whether Tebow throws more than he did in college or not is irrelevant. That does not make him a passing QB. The fact that he is a suckwad throwing the ball, yet runs the ball better than most, makes him a RUNNING QB. The fact the Broncos severely lessened the number of pass plays and went to a more run oriented offense that actually featured a lot of legwork from Tebow is another sign that he is more of a RUNNING QB who the NFL tried to make into a passing QB but abandoned it because Tebow is actually a shitty passer. Read above, THAT is why he is a running QB. There is plenty to back that up unless you think his 8 pass attempts last year out of 70 someodd plays for the Jets indicates they think he's a passing QB too. 2 teams think he's a better runner than a passer by the way they used him. Just because they had him throw it more in the NFL doesn't mean he did it well. he was like a fish outta water. That's nice. But that was spread throughout the SEC. Florida had a third of that number in just the offense alone. I see you failed to find a defense Tebow and the Gators faced that had 10 out of 11 go to the NFL. That's about 91% of the offense right there. So I'm guessing there wasn't a defense they quite matched that talent. Point for me. The gators offense had more NFL caliber players than any of the defenses they faced. That helps Tebow look better. You mean like you and Demosthenes do by resorting to name calling and thumping your chest about how brilliant your argument is? ....and you STILL don't get it. He's not being treated as a passing QB because he isn't one. White flag accepted.
What did you actually watch his games in college? Tebow was never considered a pass first QB. He was a product of the system and Urban new how to use him. Make the read if it is not open run.
If the Jets were smart they would make Tebow the starter and give him 16 games to prove what he has, hell we are cap strapped. We know what Sanchez possesses and it is a lump of shit.
Do you realize that if you made that statement into a "smilie" you could cut your typing in this forum by 100%
