LOL, so when someone disagrees with you, they're obviously trolling? I accept your terms, though. Your posts are just tedious to read and I'll be glad to skip them going forward. The good news, since you're not interested in discussion, he'll be a cancer to a different team soon and you can follow him there.
Retreating from a substantive argument definitely fits you better, since you clearly aren't interested in having an honest debate.
You didn't call Tebow an "Elite QB." In your first post on this thread, you called him an "Elite PASSER." So why WOULDN'T you factor in passing yards when calling him an "elite passer?" His surrounding cast might have given him better numbers as a passer, but he has been FAR FAR FAR from elite as a passer in the NFL. Only one to finish below 50% by the end of 2011 season. His yardage sucked too, even when factoring in that he only played 11 games.
The career touchdown passes. Tebow had more than it shows. More than Rex Grossman, more than Shane Matthews. More than Eli Manning. More than David Greene. Jay Cutler, Ryan Mallet. The list goes on. The point is not say "he must be better than everybody he threw more touchdowns than." The point is that he threw it a lot in college, at least in terms of big, clutch plays. Touchdowns just tend to stick to the guy. Statistically, there's no comparison between Colin Klein and Tebow -- that's what makes Tebow sort of fascinating. People want to put him in this box of bruising runner, but he threw the ball for incredible efficiency in college. Quite a large number of throws and touchdown throws.
He's been in the league for 3 years, has 16 starts, and only completed above the 50% mark once in his career when he has a couple that fell into the 20s. His yardage in the NFL is remarkably low, among the last place in yardage per game. Whatever he did in college is irrelevant, because it has not translated to the NFL. I freely admit he was a damn good player in college. But he wouldn't be the first damn good college player to be an epic fail in the NFL. Nor will he be the last. look at the Heisman winners that werre good in the NFL too, and then look at those that failed miserably, it is about even. Teams want a good passer, and Tebow finishes last in most categories except when all he has to do is hurl it over the receiver. So you guys gotta stop getting hung up on what he did in Florida with a well stacked roster and pay attention to what he does with his passing since then, because frankly, he sucks ass as an NFL passer. Yes, we all know about the strike he threw in Pittsburgh, but he leaves a lot to be desired when passing 90+percent of the time.
Tebow's all-time passing position is lessened by the fact that he was not a 4 year starter. Chris Leak was the starter in Tebow's freshman year when the Gators won the first of two national championships during Tebow's time there. If Tebow were a 4 year starter, he would surely be ranked much higher in all-time passing yards and TDs.
Still doesn't change the fact that BOTH are seen as running QBs now. Tebow is anything BUT a passing QB and that has been the case since he was drafted.
Admittedly I am not keeping up with all the jabs here so I'll ask.....Is there a reason that "we" are just throwing out the fact that Tebow is a run threat out of the window and discounting all those stats as if they don't count? The running explains a lot in terms of attempts and low yardage. Needs to get the comp % up though. Also IDGAF about his motion if the ball gets there.
I wasn't trying to mince words. Normally, if one is classed as an Elite QB that means they are an Elite Passer. For me, the terms are interchangeable. I only kept specifically saying Elite Passer because of all who have tried to re-write Tebow's NCAA history as being primarily a running QB, which is completely false. I never said you shouldn't factor them in. I said to base the whole classification of "Elite" on Passing Yards alone is absurd. And it is. Just like with you beating the 3rd down and completion % to death. It doesn't tell even close to the whole story of a QB's performance and efficiency. It's like saying that the sauce is what makes a good piece of BBQ, that the meat doesn't really matter. Being a big time maker and lover of authentic southern BBQ, I can tell you it ain't true. We're not talking about the NFL, we're talking about college. Can't very well compare Tim Tebow to Collin Klein in the NFL since Klein hasn't ever taken a snap in the NFL. I was just trying to stick with his numbers as a starter, that's why I classified it as 83 TD's instead of 88. Yep, he did, although some want to deny that. Yep. On both counts. Again, we're talking about his college stats because you can't compare Tebow's and Klein's NFL stats since Klein doesn't have any. And whether what he accomplished in college will translate to the NFL is yet to be known. Throw out his W/L record so far as an NFL starter, and his overall QB efficiency stats are still much, much better than many successful NFL QB's had to show in their first 16 starts in the league. Yep, you're right, and I don't know any Tebow supporter who has ever stated otherwise. I just don't think he will be an epic fail in the NFL. You're free to think otherwise. Until he is, or he isn't, neither of us can claim to have been right. This is no more true now than it was the last 100 times you said it.
The fact that he's a run threat IS the point. That is pretty much all he really is. Just like Klein, who seems to constantly get compared to Tebow, and has a rep for inability to throw. Also, nobody would GAF about his throwing motion... if he could actually hit the ocean with a rock. Less than 50% completion percentage is dog butt bad, and most of that is on him. Either it is his inability to read defenses, or he cann't memorize where the receivers are expected to go becuse he is as dumb as a pile of rocks... or that whacky assed and well telegraphed pop warner 15 yard windmill bomb is getting in his way. Maybe a combination of two, maybe even all three. Take your pick, but SOMETHING is wrong with his passing. ...and now, we have another entering the league who seems to be an exact clone of Tebow. A kid who is big, can run, has a lot of heart and desire, but can't throw worth a shit. ...and seems to be gaining popularity with the media. His name is Klein. Either Klein becomes the next Tebow, or maybe it is Manti Te'o. His run time seems to have made the front page of the news.
Well, I hate to burst your false statistical bubble - AGAIN - but you're not even remotely close to correct. In his first 16 NFL starts, 70% of Tebow's touches were passes and 30% were rushes. That means he passed the ball 8.5% more of the time than in college. Oh, who am I kidding. I'm not sorry to burst your false statistics. It's quite fun making you look like a fool. Of course there's a reason. It's because this is Tebow we're talking about, and he has an entirely different set of standards by which he is judged than do Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick and RGIII.
You're going to need a trailer to tote around that growing nose of yours here before long.:rofl2: Tebow has been getting savaged over his throwing motion since before he was drafted, when he came out of the NCAA with a 66%+ career completion percentage and hadn't thrown his first pass in the NFL yet. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts. One of these days you might eventually figure that out. Actually, nah, you probably won't.
to me, they don't neccessarily mean the same thing. You can be an average or slightly above average passer if you bring a lot of other elements to the table. Like running, clutch plays, leadership, being able to diagnose what is going to happen on the field and change things up... Peyton Manning was REALLY good at that last one. We're talking about the complete package when saying "Elite QB." Elite Passer is self evident. They could totally suck ass in all other departments but perform surgery on passing. Tebow was neither. He was pretty good on a team stacked with future NFL players against insurance salesmen, but hasn't done much in the NFL since. I still don't see why you don't think leading the league in three and outs, failure to convert third downs, and incompletion percentage as being a major reason the offense was so shitty. There really wasn't any ball control there as they punted it away all the time. Tebow might have been good at avoiding interceptions, but all that really did was make sure we punted the ball. You gotta extend drives if you want to beat more than bottom feeders on some miracle break at the end. It DOES tell the story, and other teams are paying attention. I don't suppose you noticed very few teams seem to be taking interrest in Tebow. Coming out of college, sure, the media might have it wrong since Tebow got a pretty little stat sheet you guys like to brandish on his stacked roster. However, at the time, people still thought of his as primarily a running QB, and that has pretty much been his M.O. since he was drafted. So try to follow this: Tebow was considered a running QB who can't pass. Some thought he should play tight end. Tebow in the NFL has been pretty much a running QB who can't pass. People STILL think he should be a tight end. Collin Klein is seen as a running QB who can't pass. Fill in the blanks as you predict where I'm going with this... _________________________. ______________________. They're the same fucking guy!!! Only REAL difference is, Collin Klein doesn't have that shiny stat sheet Tebow got when playing on an ELITE TEAM.
I didn't say he never tried to throw the ball. But 47%? come on, dude. he's not a passer, and everyone but the acid shooters down in Florida and some of their converts know it. You still haven't answered why Tim Tebow getting a lucky strike in to win a playoff game warrants more chances for him, but Sanchez and Rex Ryan should be run out of the league after one bad year when they have been to the conference finals TWICE in the last 4 years.
I can see that he was 66% in COLLEGE... that isn't the point. It happened on an ELITE TEAM... surrounded by NFL caliber players where 10 out of his 11 starters went to the NFL after beating up insurance salesmen... The reason you ignore that, is because you KNOW that will help his numbers. The reason you ignore his NFL stats when you seem to think they were GOLDEN in college, is because now they don't make him look good. Instead you'll go to personal insults like Demosthenes9. The other reason you constantly ignore it, is because the truth makes Tebow look like less of a big deal in all that than you and your fellow kool-aid drinkers have been trying to sell us since draft day. Can't you see that he has sucked ass completing passes in NFL? I'm talking about the NFL, you know, the league that doesn't seem to want him? Are you really that dense? His 66% was THREE YEARS AGO!! he's a RUNNING QB who CAN'T pass. Don't take my word for it, let's count the rest of the teams aroudn the league who think he's a 66% passer, shall we? So point out Tebow being a bit more of a passing QB in college if you want, but there ain't no denying.... Tim Tebow is seen as a running QB, if not a running back that throws. Collin Klein is seen as a similar player. Media is looking for a successor. I think we know how that movie is gonna end. FACT: Tebow is DEAD LAST in passing in the NFL the year he started. FACT: His pass completion percentage was 66 in college, but career NFL so far is at 47%. FACT: The only starting QB of 2011-2012 to finish UNDER 50%. FACT: Most of the surrounding cast that Tebow had in Denver was still there, and were close to the top in the league when the Broncos got a REAL QB. It is a FAR better offense with Tebow elsewhere than it was a year ago with Tebow there. Not even close. Obviously not a Superbowl team... yet, but much closer than when running the Tebow experiment. Rest of the league seems to see it that way too, or else he'd be someone's franchise player right now.
Look, you're just being ridiculous. If Peyton Manning was an elite passer in college, then Tebow was more of an elite passer in college, because he kicked Peyton's butt in quite a few passing categories and was a much more efficient QB than Peyton. Did Peyton have more passing yards than Tebow? Yes, he did, because he played more games and had 419 more passing attempts in his career as a starter. So, was Peyton an elite passer in college? Keep talking all you want about Tebow's Florida teams having good players, the same can no doubt be said for a lot of good college QB's. Doesn't change the fact that he has those stats, or that they have theirs. And the last time I checked, in his 3 years as a starter at Florida, of all the receivers and tight ends he threw to, there was exactly 1 receiver and 1 tight end who have made any kind of a difference for their teams in the NFL so far. And his running backs? Harvin. That's it, and he doesn't even play RB for the most part in the NFL. Tell me how many of his other running backs have done squat in the NFL? Oh, and by the way, Tebow's completion % got better after Harvin left for the NFL. In Tebow's 3 years as a starter, you know how many Offensive players Florida had drafted in the 1st rd. of the draft? 3. Including Tebow. Yeah, boy, they were surely stacked with top NFL talent at every position on Offense, huh? Know how many Offensive 1st rounders were selected from Tennessee while Peyton was there? 3. Including himself. I understand that Tebow's gaudy passing stats in college present a problem for your argument that he can't be an accurate QB even though he already has been, but when you keep beating on his college stats and act like his passes threw themselves, you just look so desperate to discredit anything positive he has ever done. Which, of course, you are. Which is pretty sad. Because teams with really high powered offenses also sometimes have very poor stats in some of those categories, which I've pointed out to you numerous times. Cause and effect. You want to assign a certain cause to a certain effect, even though the same cause frequently ends up with a very different effect. That does not equal correlation. Period. I don't suppose you noticed the Jets are trying to trade Tebow instead of releasing him, meaning they think he has trade value. We'll see who is correct soon enough. The only sensible thing you've said in this post. I think ice cream is a gift from Heaven. Doesn't mean it's true. Tebow wasn't primarily a running QB in college, and he has been even less of a running QB in the NFL. Whether or not people considered him a running QB makes no difference. Coming out of college no one questioned Tebow's accuracy, only his throwing motion/wind-up and whether it could work in the NFL because of faster defenders. Did he run more often in college than the man with concrete legs, Peyton Manning? Of course. Does that mean he was primarily a running QB? In Tebow's case, not even close. In Klein's case, no, but a lot closer to the truth. Not even close. We know Tebow was an elite passing QB in college. Klein had a pretty good Sr. year, but still nothing close to the passing production that Tebow had in even his worst year as a college starter. We weren't talking about his completion %, you said he's been anything but a passing QB since he was drafted. Only thing to say is that's a bald-faced lie, especially since he has passed more often in the NFL than he did even in college. For starters, one pass wasn't what won that game, an entire game's worth of performance from the whole team did. Secondly, what? I never said Sanchez or Ryan should be "run out of the league". You're out of your gourd. I don't think Sanchez is a long term successful QB in the NFL, and I think his awful play last year warranted giving the back-up a shot (regardless of whether it was McElroy or Tebow), but I didn't say he should be run out of the league.lol. There are plenty of QB's with a job in the NFL who are infinitely worse than Sanchez. As for Rex, he's got talent as a Defensive Coordinator, I just don't think he has the leadership skills, discipline or character necessary to be a successful head coach long-term in the NFL. Same could be said for some other head coaches, and plenty of assistant coaches in the NFL. Doesn't mean they should be run out of the league. Not everyone has what it takes to wear the big boy pants. I've never said anything more or less than that, that I can recall. Of course it is, this thread is trying to compare Tebow to Collin Klein. Klein has never played a down in the NFL, so we can only compare their college stats. If you don't like that, you shouldn't have started this thread. Yep, there are so many insurance salesmen in the SEC recently that they've won the last 7 BCS Championship Games.:lol: Ignore his NFL stats? You can't be serious, can you? You must be joking. I have cited his NFL stats over and over and over and over and over again. I'm sorry if you disagree with which stat categories should carry more weight, but, there it is.... His college stats were Golden, as any objective viewing, with no names attached, would attest. You only rail against them because it's Tim Tebow we're talking about. And the only thing insulting is how you're making yourself look after lying over and over again about his stats. Apparently you don't realize this is the Internet age and things like that can be checked and verified. We're not talking about the NFL, we're talking about Tebow vs. Klein college stats, remember? If you want to know my feelings on Tebow's performance in the NFL, there are about 100 other threads you can search for and read again to your heart's content.
You said Which is a lie. That is what I was responding to. I don't know what you're going on about in your FACT sheet above, because it has nothing to do with his college stats, which is what we're comparing here in this thread to Collin Klein's college stats. Try to keep up. As it would be had Manning replaced all but about 3-4 current NFL starting QB's. I have to say, this angry, reckless version of you when you get called out on your false stats and lies is quite interesting to debate, but, much more desperate seeming. Kind of fun. Keep it up, I can do this all day.
No I'm NOT being rediculous, YOU are. You seem to think that just because Tim Tebow's college stats compared to Peyton Manning's college stats, (WITH A STACKED ROSTER) that Tebow should be seen as an elite passer too. I could give a shit less about his college stats he racked up (WITH A STACKED ROSTER.) That is college. This is the NFL. Peyton is Elite. Tebow is not. He was at the very bottom of the pack passing the ball. Youre damn right I'm gonna keep talking about the players around him. IT MATTERS. Are you too stupid to undrestand that? It doesn't matter if they were or were not all-pros in the NFL. 10 out of 11 were good enough (jury still out on the 11th) to make the NFL. What defense in college defending that can make that claim? Like it or not, the supporting cast helped Tebow get those stats. You'd have a point if he took a crappy team to those stats. You think Tebow would have put those numbers up at Vanderbilt? They aren't a problem at all. He's accurate enough in college, but the NFL is too fast for him. His accuracy is a HUGE problem. If his college stats are indicative on how accurate he CAN be, then why haven't they translated to the NFL? I'll tell you why. It is because his competition got a lot better and he no longer gets to lead an NFL caliber offense against insurance salesmen. Against defenses that are ALL NFLers, it't been a problem for him, hasn't it. 3 years, and the biggest knock on him is STILL his passing. That makes his college stats WORTHLESS. Why? Because they didn't translate to NFL passing. Why are you having such a hard time grasping that concept. he was good enough for LAST PLACE in NFL. They've done nothing but devalue Tebow all year. They had to chop a lot of salary for big names to get under the cap. Cutting Tebow gives them very little savings, which his cheapness makes him a tradeable commodity. That, and he's attractive for marketing reasons. A team may want to get first dibs on that. They weren't going to be able to trade the 10 million dollar players, which is why they were cut and Tebow hasn't been. How do you figure? The coaching staff didn't call disproportinately more running plays because they thought Tebow was less of a running quarterback. Running is about the only really good tangible he had out there. You know it, I know it, the rest of the planet knows it. Just because Tebow wasn't the one carrying the ball for ALL of the runs doesn't mean he was more so a passer. that is idiotic because he was asked to pass less times than just about any other QB in the league in a pass happy league. Why? because he was a much better runner than a passer. He's a running QB being asked to be a passer, and it just isn't working that well for him. SOME people considered him an accurate passer based on those stat sheets. Others said his throwing motion would be a problem. Seems like the second group is correct, because his career pass completion percentage is below 50%. His percentage is so low, you'd need a submarine to measure it. Stevie Wonder would have better percentage. But it hasn't translated to the NFL, JFjets! So why does his college stats matter more? because they make Tebow look better than his NFL stats do? It's the fucking truth!!! The Broncos cut down on passing DRASTICALLY from the Orton offense, because he sucks passing the ball. He HASN'T been a great passer. He has done a few good things with it, but there's a reason he gets that rap. There's a reason the Broncos went more run oriented. It is because Tebow isn't a passing QB. He might have been in college, but not in the NFL. Thank you for finally giving credit to the rest of the team. You can also compare their style of game. College stat comparisons when one played for Kansas state and the other played for the Gators is silly to me. Of course Tebow will have better numbers, naturally. You HONESTLY don't think Klein would have put up better numbers with the Gator roster Tebow had? You HONESTLY think Tebow would have put up the same numbers in Kansas State? Rhetorical question, I know you won't answer that one. Name ONE DEFENSE the gators faced during Tebow's tenure that sent at least 10 out of 11 of their starters to the NFL. Just one. You're only willing to consider stats that look at things in some bizarre angle that make Tebow look good. yed downplay three and outs, completion percentages, and third down conversions. While true, it is possible to win being in last place in all those categories, it sure as hell isn't winning consistently, and CERTAINLY not without a defense carring the heavy load for you. Not railing against them. They're good stats and I said as much. But while you are looking at them through Tebow colored lenses, you are missing the big picture on how he got those numbers. Plus, they appear meaningless since his supposedly really good accuracy is good enough for LAST PLACE in the NFL. that just isn't good IMO. Certainly not elite. [quoteIf you want to know my feelings on Tebow's performance in the NFL, there are about 100 other threads you can search for and read again to your heart's content.[/QUOTE] Yeah, we know. all of the good things that happened for the Broncos were because of him, and most of the shortcomings were someone elses fault.
I wasn't talking about college, YOU are. Try to keep up and QUIT DODGING... Right now, Tebow is seen as a running QB. That might have been different 3 years ago to some, but RIGHT NOW, he's a running QB. The Broncos even cut down on passing to play to those "strengths" with a run heavy offense. Whether more of his touches were passes than runs, is irrelevant, because the offense AS A WHOLE shifted HARD from a more passing oriented one to a running one. As it would be had Manning replaced all but about 3-4 current NFL starting QB's. Oh please. Just because you and Demos keep cherry picking my quotes, and misinterpretting my posts and sidestepping the point behind them, doens't make it a lie. It is OPINION vs. OPINION. Even your stat sheets can be spun to mean whatever you want. Like you stating when Tebow has the ball, he passes it more than he runs with it in a greater ratio to running than he did in college. TRUE, but also SPIN. The Broncos also called FAR less passing than the average team, mostly because Tebow is a shitty passer, but really good a running. A two headed Running game like they ran acually worked well for a time, which ended up #1 in the league. You yourself complained about the percentage of run plays the Broncos called. You can take stats into some strange angle to make ANYONE look like a liar. Pure spin, my friend. THAT is desperation trying to make Tebow's case for him that he's actually a pretty good QB. For example. I keep pointing out that Tebow is seen as more of a running QB as is Klein. You keep falling back to college, and while you are correct, many thought of Tebow as an accurate passer, it didn't turn out to be the case. SPIN. He had a really good roster that helped his numbers, and was exposed in the NFL. How can you sit there with a straight face and tell me that Tebow is an accurate passer with that 47% completion percentage? Where did that 20% go if it isn't Tim? If you want to go STRICTLY off the stat sheets of college for Klein and Tebow in determining what kind of QB they are, then you are correct, Tebow looks like the far superior passer. But that is a VERY narrow minded way of looking at it. However, how hard would it be for Klein to match Tebow's completion percentage if he were given 16 starts? Look pretty much like the same dude to me. Neither can throw worth a shit, one has proven that in the NFL, the other I can see no reason to think he'll be a good passing QB. Both are runners. So what is wrong with the comparison other than some stat sheet?
:rofl2: You're becoming quite unhinged, CC, methinks your rage that I won't roll over and accept all your false stats and lies has clouded your glasses a bit because you seem to be having some reading comprehension issues. For the 100th time, this thread is comparing Tebow's college stats to Klein's college stats. You want to talk about Tebow's NFL stats for the millionth time, start a new thread or read one of the hundred already in existence. You started the thread asking why the media is comparing Klein to Tebow. I've explained the reason, and the folly and falsehood behind that reason. If you don't like the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question. I'm not going to re-hash again everything I've already said in this thread just because you couldn't comprehend it the first time. I'm still waiting to hear from you on if Peyton Manning was an elite passer in college. And while you're pondering your answer, consider this: - Total number of Tennessee players drafted in Rounds 1-7 of the NFL Draft in 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000, the drafts following each of Peyton Manning's 4 years as a starter, and the 2 after he was drafted - 40 - Total number of Florida players drafted in Rounds 1-7 of the NFL Draft in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012, the drafts following each of Tim Tebow's 3 years as a starter, and the 2 after he was drafted - 17 Since you have a very selective ability to understand numerical statistics when it comes to Tim Tebow, let me help you out. That's an average of 6.66 players/year selected during Manning's starting career, and 3.4 players/year selected during Tebow's starting career. Of the above, 19 of the Tennessee players, 3.16/year on average, were Offensive players. 10 of the Florida players, 2/year on average, were Offensive players. In case you're still confused, that means that Manning had more NFL talent on his teams - quite a bit more - than Tebow. So let's stop with the idea that Tebow was the only elite college passer who had good talent around him. I know you'll try to figure out some way to deny or belittle the truth of this, but please, for your own sake, just stop, you're turning into a blubbering pile of hysterical mess on me, here. You ought to consider whether you really want to keep arguing this line of reasoning, because the facts and stats are definitely not on your side. Feel free to continue to do it if you want, you're just going to keep on losing the argument. Tebow was an elite passer in college, and any objective person could look at his stats and see that. You, of course, are not objective, so I don't expect much out of you.
