And again what you and others ignore is that the kid came off the bench in game six, having only had 3 career starts under his belt. But oh no, since he didn't look like a seasoned Tom Brady or Peyton Manning in his first 16 starts, then he isn't an NFL QB. What is it going to take for you to get it through your dense skull that no one is claiming that Tebow was or is a HoF QB at this point in his career ? That all we are arguing is that he did more than enough and earned another year as a starter to develop ??
We're not arguing that he isn't a HoF QB either. He's not a STARTING QB. Maybe not even a viable backup. Tebow's going into his 4th year as a professional football player and he's shown virtually no progress as a QB. He isn't getting any better at reading Defenses, mechanics, going thru his progressions, working the pocket, etc, etc, etc. The average NFL career is between 3 and 4 years. He's getting to the end of that length of time. Timmy's been coached by NFL level coaches (Josh McDaniels had a reputation as a QB guru and Mike McCoy won the Chargers HC job partly for the performances he'd wrung out of Jake Delhomme, Kyle Orton, and Brady Quinn). Timmy has also worked with the new Bears HC, Marc Trestman who has was sought after by many college prospects to prepare them for their predraft workouts, pro days, combine, etc. He's had more than enough access to real help for his development. So some of us feel that as a QB, Tebow is what he is. Not very good. If he doesn't show real development as an NFL QB after 3 full years in the League, then he has NOT "done more than enough to earn another year as a starter." Maybe that's why he's finally off at some Arizona (?) community college working out like he should have been doing all along in the off-seasons, like every other QB does...
He hasnt earned shit. If he had he would be playing. You guys want him to BE GIVEN a spot. like its some fucking right he was born with. EVERY OTHER PRO HAS TO EARN THEIR PLAYING TIME... but not tebow no way. he should just get it. ignore the fact that he sucks in practice, ignore the fact he struggles in every fucking aspect of the qb position that matters: Reading defenses ... pre and post snap, short and mid range accuracy, and making read progressions. Ignore the fact that he "cant learn" like anyone else in the film room because he is dyslexic which means you cant help him off the field and ignore the fact he HAS MADE NO DISCERNIBLE PROGRESS IN 3 years and yes by god he just fucking deserves a spot. Guess what buttercup your man crush sucks, will be out of the league soon enough and then you can bitch about how he was mistreated forever. Enjoy! I honestly think you guys cant fucking wait to martyr tim tebow.
Ravens and Niners were ranked 10th and 11th in 2012 in points per game. Not exactly low scoring. They averaged just a little less points per game in 2012 than Denver did in Tebow's 3 starts in 2010. When he threw 25% more passes, by the way. Nope, the disconnect is that you have hung almost your entire argument against Tebow on his completion % and his 3 and out and 3rd down conversion rates. I have shown multiple examples - including both Super Bowl QB's this year - that those are not the most correlative stats to wins. Tebow did it and produced wins on a team with an overall bad defense. Both the Niners and the Ravens have defenses that are vastly superior to the Broncos Defense last year. According to you, none of those teams should have had many wins, and all those other teams I listed should have had MORE wins.
Go back and look at what Aaron Rodgers had done after 3 years in the NFL, and he wasn't even considered to be a "project" QB. As for being a "starter", as I have said before, Tebow is held to a much different standard that any other young QB. By "starter", you mean that he should look like EXPERIENCED QBs like Big Ben, or Rivers, or Brady, or hell, even Flacco. You know, guys that have been in the league for awhile and have 50+ starts under their belts. Newsflash, he's only had 16 freaking starts and he's NEVER had a TC / preseason where he got the starting 1st team snaps. For pete's sake, Brady Quinn has had more opportunities than Tebow. He's had 20 NFL starts, has a 4-16 record, and for some reason, people still see him as an "NFL QB", even if it's just being a backup. Christian Ponder had 10 starts in 2011. He went 2-8 and got the nod as the starter for the 2012 season. Sam Bradford has had 42 freaking starts. He has a record of 15-26-1. Yet he's still considered an "NFL QB" and has a starting job. Chad Henne has a record of 14-23. Don't see people running around claiming that he isn't an NFL QB. Brandon Wheedon was 5-10 this year, but he'll probably have a job next year. Josh Freeman has a record of 24-32, yet he'll also be on someone's roster as a QB next year. Tebow ? He managed to come off the bench two years in a row, compiled a 9-7 record WITH a nice playoff victory, but somehow, he's not an NFL QB.
You're kidding, right? For those 3 years Aaron Rodgers was sitting behind Brett Favre, arguably one of the greatest QBs ever to play the game. That's a load of bullcrap. Tebow was a first round draft pick. Of course he got 1st team reps. But he did nothing with them. He couldn't even look good enough to justify starting over Kyle Orton. Not even in his 2nd year when Denver openly tried to trade Orton. Even after a nearly certain trade to Miami fell thru, Orton - who Denver was clearly trying to get rid of - STILL was named stater over Tebow. Just how bad are you when you can't beat out a player the team doesn't want? Brady Quinn got his starts playing for awful team (Browns & Chiefs) who simply had no better options. And he's still seen as a real "NFL QB" because he has the proper skillset for the position. Beecause Minny had no better options available. And he also has an NFL QB skillset.. Every one of your examples are QBs on bad teams where there is no better option. And they all have much more traditional NFL QB skillsets. BECAUSE HE CAN'T THROW THE DAMNED FOOTBALL!!!! Tebow is a sub-50% passer who can't read a Defense, go throw his progressions, make good decisions and get rid of the ball quickly. His mechanics are still horrible. He appears to actually be a locker room cancer in spite of his good-guy persona (remarks by his former Broncos teammates indicate that there was a lot of jealousy and resentment towards Tebow). For his first 3 offseasons he appeared to be more interested in book tours, golf tournaments, getting on Letterman, and being an underwear spokeman rather than seriously trying to improve his skills as a QB. Not to mention the media circus and disruptive, obnoxious fans that follow him everywhere. Just what is so appealing in Tebow for an NFL team to waste a roster spot on him as a QB?
Are you serious? Google and find out who the starting quarterback of the Packers were during Rodgers's first 3 years. Now, take that guy, and compare his career to the guys that sat in front of Tebow in the lineup. Yo're a really really reall smart guy as evidenced by your post that belittle anyone not thinking Tebow is the greatest thing ever, so tell me what you see after the search... Neither did Ponder, or Andrew Dalton at first. They demonstrated they can at least execute a game plan. (Albeit, Ponder isn't that great.) Tebow, well, he has to fly by the seat of his pants because he comes up as illiterate when reading passing defenses. There you go taking a TEAM record and applying it to one guy again a if it were a one on one Tennis record. Ask yourself, smart guy, has it ever crossed your mind that maybe the team around those guys might leave a bit to be desired? use that genius brain of yours that is so much better than ours and check out the teams all 5 of those guys play for and tell me about the makeup of those teams? Sure, Minnesota had Peterson, but even they don't have a roster that exactly inspires fear across the league. As would just about any of them with a defense that only allowed 15 points or less in most of those wins. The win/loss record isn't the only stat to look at. Can the guy throw? No. Can the guy read defenses? No. Can the guy execute your game plan? No. Does he move the chains and put points on the board? He led the league in three and outs and one of the lowest scoring offenses in the league, so... NO!!! Then bring in someone who can so we can give the defense a break once in a while. The Broncos did that, went 13-3, were among the top offenses in the league. Defense actually got a break for awhile in games, THEY finished in the top third. Bummer they didn't get far in the playoffs, but in a sport where there is NO SUCH THING as a guarantee, the Broncos chances of winning ended up being much better with Manning than with the three and out dirt missile machine. Tebow was the weakest link, and everyone paying attention to more than just the hilights or the win loss column when Tebow was obviously carried to most of those wins, can see that. THIS is why he might not have a career much longer.
I'm not referring to him being the #2 behind Favre. What I was referring to is that WHILE he was the backup to Favre, he looked like shit for the first 2 seasons and it wasn't until part way through the 3rd that he started to look like an NFL QB. No, it isn't a load of bullcrap. Tebow was taken in the 1st round by McDaniels but was seen as a project by McDaniels and everyone else. He didn't go into camp as the presumptive starter, and he didn't get the first team reps that the starter gets. Actually, in his first year, I don't think he even got the 2nd team reps. You act like Denver was some powerhouse. Denver was 4-22 IIRC when Tebow took over. Oh, great, Brady Quinn has the "skill set" even though he can't win freaking football games. I guess it's because he looks pretty while throwing the ball huh >? Again, the "skill set". All Tebow does is find ways to win football games, but I guess that doesn't matter. Nope. Somewhere along the way, they stopped counting Wins and Losses, and instead, a teams final standing depends on how much the starter looks like an NFL QB with his "skill set". Yet again, Tebow manages to win. BTW, let's go ahead and get into the "skill set" argument. Ponder didn't look like he had the "skill set" last year. Couldn't read a defense to save his life. Made the normal mistakes that most young QBs make. Was indecisive of where to throw the ball to and didn't really understand what he was seeing out on the field. Guess what ? That's not a slam against Ponder, as it's EXPECTED of young QBs. It's why they are judged differently than experienced QBs. IF you will, it's like a job in the real world where someone is undergoing On The Job training. You know they are going to make mistakes, you just hope that they learn from them over time. IF an experienced person makes the same mistakes or the same frequency of mistakes, they would get in trouble for it. And don't try to tell me that Tebow had a better team. Ponder had Percy Harvin and Adrian Petersen for most of the season. BECAUSE HE CAN'T THROW THE DAMNED FOOTBALL!!!! Again, a load of bullshit for the most part. Young QBs often have trouble reading defenses, especially when they don't have experience. Hell, Mark Sanchez just finished his 4th year in the NFL and he still can't read defenses. Same thing with going through progressions. IF you actually watched Tebow in 2011, and in his limited appearances in the 2012 preseason, you would have seen that he was going through progressions. Not at the speed of Manning, Brady, or other QBs with lots of NFL experience, but on a more basic and rudimentary level. About what you'd expect from a YOUNG QB without a lot of experience. In my view, in 2011 with Denver, they wanted an experienced QB instead of being willing to be patient and let a young QB develop and grow. They stuck Tebow in there, said "Don't fark it up", and drew up an extremely conservative offense and game plan. I think it was Brian Billick who pointed this out on NFLN. He talked about how guys like Ponder were allowed to go out there and make mistakes. If they threw an interception, it was seen as a learning experience. He talked about how Tebow wasn't in that kind of situation. What is so appealing about Tebow ?> In 2011, even with his deficiencies, he had the highest QBR in the NFL in the last 5 minutes of football games. In those last 5 minutes, it's not a coincidence that he was running a Spread Offense and operated completely out of the shotgun. Why in the world Mike McCoy didn't see this and decide to play entire games from the shotgun is beyond me, especially when they could still run the ball effectively from the gun with the Read/Option. It's not like with other teams where if you go shotgun exclusively, it means you are basically giving up on the running game. What is so appealing about Tebow is the fact that Denver was down by 3 to the Jets, with 95 yards to go, and Tebow marched right down the field and scored a TD. This, against a coach who was proclaimed to have been the best against defending the Option. I mean, Rex apparently had a chapter in his book detailing how to stop the Option. During Denver's 7-1 stretch, teams knew what was coming. That if Denver was close and got the ball late in the game, Tebow would drive down the field and Denver would win. Guess what >? Most teams couldn't stop him even though they knew it was coming. Now, you might think it silly, but I'd love it if a team gave him a chance. Put him in an offense that he could excel in, like Washington did with RG3, SF has done with Kaepernick, Carolina did with Cam and Seattle did with Wilson. Give the kid the offseason to work with the offense. Give him the snaps in preseason and TC and let him actually develop as a QB. In short, give him the same opportunity that other young QBs traditionally get.
It doesn't matter that Favre was in front of him on the depth chart, as he sucked as the backup. Go do some reading yourself. Here's an article from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel discussing his development: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/pack...r-audible-with-packers-4p3loj7-136856133.html Here are a couple of quotes: and Now don't just skim over those quotes, go and read the actual article. What it will show you is that it took Aaron Rodgers, currently one of the NFLs best QBs, three freaking years to develop on the bench. That when he played in his first three years, he usually looked pretty bad. That it was only AFTER he had three years to develop under the patient tutelage of a good coaching staff, that he became a great QB. Ah, Tebow is illiterate when it comes to reading passing defenses, because YOU say so. Kind of funny given that you have demonstrated that you don't understand the game. Tell ya what cupcake, Tebow is a lot better at reading defenses than you think he is. The problem here of course is that we are discussing what YOU think, as if you know what you are talking about. And here you go thinking that Denver had a great team. Question for you. How many career catches did Denver's top 2 receivers (Decker and Thomas) have going in to 2011? The receiver corps was young, raw, and very inexperienced. Coming into 2011, Eric Decker had a grand total of 6 NFL catches. Demaryius Thomas had 22. Just for comparison, Stephen Hill had 21 catches for the Jets this year. Do you think he's going to be a stud receiver next year ? Or will he still be developing ? Ponder had Adrian Petersen AND Percy Harvin. Bradford, with St. Louis has Stephen Jackson and Danny Amendola. He also had Laurent Robinson in 2010 and Brandon Lloyd in 2011. And as has been pointed out to you, much of that is due to the conservative nature of the offense. We can explain it to you but we can't make it sink into that thick skull of your's or force you to understand it. Dude, there's only a handful of teams in the NFL who wouldn't stand a better chance of winning with a healthy Peyton Manning as the QB. GB, Pats, maybe the Giants, and the Saints. Name any other team in the NFL where Peyton Manning wouldn't be an instant upgrade at the QB position. That Denver team became better the day that Tebow took over from Orton, who strangely enough, is still seen as a viable QB in the NFL.
Typical of the Tim Tebow entitlement crowd. He's gotta earn that right to get those snaps. All those other guys you mention don't have a guy better than them on the roster. When Fox opened up the competition between Tebow and Orton, Orton was a guy the broncos didn't want and tried to trade away. When it didn't happen, it took only a day or two to figure out which one could run a traditional offense and which one didn't. At that point, there was no point in awarding snaps to a guy who was going to take it and put it in the dirt all day. Training camp was just a couple weeks away, and they had about a month to get a game plan going. Look at all the guys you named and tell me who on their roster is better at QB? Sure, Ponder had McNabb, but it was clear he didn't have it anymore. You gotta convince the coaches that you are, in fact, the best option. You have to show them, because some exaggerated feel good story about a lucky strike in a playoff game isn't going to make the sale for him. That is why I made the very first post in this thread. Find a way to make him a better practice player, and he might not scare the shit out of a coach that might consider centering their game plan around him. You guys talk a lot about how he should be allowed to go in there and make mistakes like some of the others. But their individual games and skills actually show signs of improvment. Tebow still looks as lousy out there as he did on draft day, and his only saving grace is that he's got great instincts as a runner. By the end of his second year, he was still throwing 46%. that is after a seasons worth of starts. I don't buy into the nonsense that he didn't get a few OTAs and 7 on 7 drills, he had nearly 4 months to get better as a starter, but things got worse. Backed into the playoffs with 3 losses when they were in doubt and got in only because of the thrid tiebreaker. If it isn't the league figuring him out, then he regressed. You pick. He was still going three and out. He wasn't putting a lot of point up, so Denver decided it was time to end the experiment. They got Manning, and some of the players that took the blame for Tebow's shortcomings ended up among the top of the league. Instead of pulling out squeakers on some miracle agaisnt shitty teams, they pretty much stomped the crap out of them and were competetive against the top teams they were getting raped by a year ago. Broncos jsut need to fill in a few more holes, and I think they got it. You also use the fact that he was picked up in the first round as justification for sticking with him until doomsday, or he proves himself a competent passer, whichever came first. But him going in the first round wasn't really deserved to begin with. That was one of the reasons McDaniels was fired since he traded 3 picks to move up in the first and get a guy that would ahve probably been there for the third round pick they added in the trade. He DID get his shot, and the NFL didn't come away impressed. Sorry.
He earned the shot by taking over a 1-4 team, turning the season around, going to the playoffs and getting a victory. That is more than what many of the QBs currently in the NFL have done.
Again, demonstrating that you don't know WTF you are talking about. During the season, there's little time to work on the things that you develop in TC and the preseason. The time spent practicing during the week is used to implement the game plan for the next outing. QBs don't get hundreds of reps with their receivers during the week leading to the next game. There just isn't time. It's what makes TC and the preseason so important. Flat out lying as you normally do. I've never used that as a justification. I've said that his record and performance on the field was more than enough. Seriously dude, with all the LIES you tell, and your demonstrated lack of understanding or knowledge of football, why in the fuck should anyone take you seriously ?
I said something similar when Tebow was drafted. Even Urban Meyer said he'd be at least a 3 year project. So I kind of agree that had he sat for 3 years instead of the team giving in to the chants from his rabid fanbase that really didn't give a shit whether he was actually ready for it or not, his development would have been further along. Listen up snickerdoodle. (See, I can use condescending name calling too. Aren't we special?) Reading defenses, or his inability to do so is one of the biggest knocks on him, and if he is really better than I give him credit for, he certainly hasn't demonstrated it more than a few times here and there. Never consistent. Which is why the long ball is about the only thing he really could do, since he doesn't have the anticipation to figure out where the guys are going, nor the accuracy to get the ball in the windows that are much much much more smaller and tighter than the ones he enjoyed in college. So chuck it over the receiver and everyone else, the receiver makes the adjustment, and it worked often enough to squeak out maybe 10 - 13 points in some games. Even happened in that game where he completed 2 passes. Amazing what those receivers can do with a QB who can actually hit them, huh? ...and no offensive line, and not much else to work with. Come on dude, it wasn't just the quarterback who was the reason those teams were bottom feeders. A smart football guy like who knows all about the game should understand that basic point. Had to be conservative. The QB couldn't throw worth a shit. Manning was a bigger improvment than anyone else would have been, but that wasn't my point. Point was, they got someone who could read defenses, connect on passes, move the chains, etc. I'm betting more than half the quarterbacks in this league would have done more with the 2011 team than Tebow did. The list is probably shorter on the starters in the league that wouldn't have. Even Orton has a stellar record when he has a defense giving up 15 or less. Nothing special there from tebow aside from playing behind the 8-ball all day against a team that themselves only put up maybe 7. There are several reasons that happened, but the only one the time tebow kool-aid drinkers accept is that it was some how his jedi powers of inspiration that got them in gear. Offensive production got worse. the team couldn't pass anymore. They put up fewer points. First downs became more of a rarity. Trips to the red zone became few and far in between. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that while he was unable to "inspire" more first downs from the guys actually on the field with him, he managed to get the defense to actualyl tackle someone. No dude. It was obvious the team was NOT better if you saw the Miami and Detroit game. They changed things up to Tebow's strengths (avoiding weaknesses) by going to a run heavy offense and getting away from the pass. The schedule got a lot more forgiving, and the defense was facing teams they could actually stop. Von Miller was getting more comfortable with his transition to the NFL after a few games. The defense was adjusting to Fox's new system when they didn't have an offseason to walk through it more. That was starting to gel. Elvis Dumervil was starting to shake off the rust after a year off to injury. Willis McGahee took over as starter and it took him a couple of games to get into form when the team wised up and stopped giving the ball to Moreno. Like I said, lots of things contributed, and not all of them had to do with specifically the switch at QB like you seem to think. Tebowners seriously overrate the impact tebow made.
...and they lost faith in him when the playoffs were on the line at 8-5, he goes 0-3, even losing a game they HAD to with 7 to 3. That same scenario when they needed to win one out of 3 games got Mike Shannahan fired a few years earlier. Luckily last years team got in on a third tiebreaker. Plus, as I have said, most of the league simply doesn't see it as a case of, "Tebow took the team from 1-4." He was merely a passenger for the most part with a few contributions when the whole team dug themselves out. He was merely a cog in the machine, not the machine itself. Spend about a week off the kool-aid and you might actually see where I am coming from on that.
So you are telling me.... That FOUR MONTHS of practices with the starters, and 13 games... you CAN'T work on your game with those guys and improve? That it can ONLY happen if he gets 7 on 7 drills in OTAs and going through the playbook in August rather than in October? FOUR FREAKING MONTHS with the starters? ...and he can't adjust because it happened in October rather than August? ...and you say I don't know WTF I'm talking about. FOUR friggin months and he still can't complete more than 46%. All because he didn't get 2 weeks of camp with the starters... Wow...
http://www.nfl.com/trainingcamp/sto...ice-changes-could-negatively-impact-nfl-games Mid-season practices now are basically walkthroughs.
Yes, but wer're talking about 2 weeks of training camp where the physical practices were also cut in half. hard for me to see how a couple weeks of one a day practices makes all the difference, but four freaking months won't have an impact at all. Bottom line, he had four months to work withe the starters, get comfortable with their routes, and work on something that actually resembles a game plan... and I'm being told none of that matters, he struggles because he didn't get to do some 7 on 7 red shirt drills in OTAs, and didn't get about 12 or so physical practices in camp with the starters. If he can't learn about his receivers in 13 or 14 weeks (playoffs included,) I'm guessing he's not going to get much better than he was with roughly 2 weeks of camp (also a red shirt.) We're talking a couple weeks of camp vs. 4 MONTHS of practices.... AND GAMES!!! Nothing is more brutal in education than the games themselves. Not even training camp. He also got to see the playbook from day one. He just didn't get to do it with the top guys. Either you can hit the broad side of a barn or you can not. but that goes back to his mechanics argument. One Broncos trainer said he actually improved on his mechanics in practice, but reverted back to his old habits during the games when put under stress. He should NOT be handed the starting job from training camp if he can't demonstrate to the coaching staff during the offseason that he's not the best option on the roster. I don't care what his record was when getting carried. If a coach sees one guy who is able to execute the coaches game plan, and one who is not, 99% of them would put in the guy that can execute and not go with the guy flunking out simply because he's a nice guy and people have a good feeling about the guy and what he "might" be able to accomplish on Sundays. Good luck finding that 1% who will risk their reputations, and risk losing the team for putting the guy out there that the rest of the team sees fail day in and day out in practice. Face it, practice matters. That is the audition you get to get on the stage is there. This is the whole point of this thread when I started it. Get him away from the cameras like just about every other project, keep him away from his Hollywood appearances for a year or two, and let him develop into a decent player the NFL actually wants. his running and intangibles you can't teach would be bonus.
There's two issues being argued here. First, your contention that he had all those practices during 11 game period when he was the starter. You know, the whole "4 months of practices" thing. Second, is the issue of him not getting starter reps in TC and the preseason. Yes, there are some things that he would/should have learned during the actual season. BUT, many of those things are worked on first in TC when you get the starting reps. During the actual season, as I said, you do walk through practices to install the game plan. In game experience each weekend was highly beneficial, but it's ignorant of you to claim that those 4 months of practices during the season should have led to a vast improvement. We're talking about Tebow here. He needed to work on more than just timing of routes with receivers. If he was the first string QB, he'd have gotten a lot more reps with receivers just to work on his mechanics, delivery and timing. He'd get more reps in TC and preseason to work on reading defenses instead of standing back and trying to learn through mental reps. He'd have gotten more reps and could practice going through progressions, instead of again trying to do the same thing through mental reps. Don't take my work for it, listen to what Steve Young had to say about it is the "Faces of Tebow" segment he was involved in. What he said was that: "you learn and grow at about a 20 % pace WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING. You learn at grow at a 100% pace WHEN YOU ARE MAKING THE MISTAKES AND FIXING THEM." Actually, do yourself a favor and listen to the entirety of what Steve Young had to say vis a vis Tebow. http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-jets/0ap1000000061671/A-Football-Life-Tebow-the-quarterback
As they should be. If a player can't tackle after 6 to 8 years of high school and college ball he doesn't belong in the NFL. Teams should be cutting those guys until they find people who can tackle. If a player dogs it and doesn't go full out during the game and his tackling suffers as a result of that he doesn't belong in the NFL. Teams should be cutting those guys until they find people who give full effort and tackle well as a result. Having extra full contact practices because it helps players do the things they should know how to do anyway is a joke. These guys are either pros or they should be cut until you find pros. The injury factor in football is extreme already. There's no reason pros should face additional chances to get injured because some guys need to have good tackling habits reinforced after they've already been playing football for the length of time these guys have.
