No Welker. QB and scheme has to do with a lot of his production. No Jordy Nelson, same thing. Both of them are not primary targets on their own offense. Hakeem, Greg, Mike, Marques, Miles, Lloyd are all ones I would put as equal to Tone. Reggie with his age no thinks. Julio still has some years to go. Stevie Johnson not yet and maybe never. The ones I listed before are ones I would trade straight up no questions asked. The ones that are equal would depend on other things like cap, offensive scheme, other WR on the team so things not related to the actual skill of the player. You also listed a lot of players who are the second target on their team. That is a big benefit to them statistically. Stats of wide receivers don't correlate to the skill of a wide receiver. And to the comment on #1 receivers, there are only a handful of true #1 receivers. They would be Andre, Fitz, Calvin, Marshall at times.
Hmmm, how can I put this somewhat nicely ? If you wouldn't trade Holmes for either Welker or Jordy Nelson, then you must be completely out of your mind BTW, Welker has been the Pats "primary receiver" for the past 5 years or so. I do believe you are confusing the "#1 receiver" position with the "#1 receiver/target on the team. And to your statement about stats not correlating to WR skills, funny isn't it, how how everyone knows that Welker is a huge threat, the Pats best weapon, they double team him and actually scheme for him, yet he still ends up with massive stats ?? Lastly, you would honestly, and with a straight face put Colston and Holmes on equal footing ? Colston ? The dude has put up 1000 yard seasons for the 5 of the 6 years that he has been in the league, and the year he didn't, he was injured. Are you really going to sit there and say that if you were Tannenbaum, and you could trade Holmes for Colston (ignoring the salary cap ramifications), you wouldn't do it in a heartbeat ? Really ?
1. Calvin Johnson 2. Larry Fitzgerald 3. Andre Johnson 4. Steve Smith 5. Roddy White 6. Wes Welker 7. A.J. Green 8. Brandon Marshall 9. Julio Jones 10. Mike Wallace 11. Greg Jennings 12. Hakeem Nicks 13. Dwayne Bowe 14. Marques Colston 15. Vincent Jackson 16. Percy Harvin 17. Desean Jackson 18. Dez Bryant 19. Reggie Wayne 20. Michael Crabtree I'd take all of those guys over Holmes for next season. Holmes rep is much higher than his production. It's not just Sanchez either. Holmes wasn't a world-beater with Big Ben throwing to him.
You do realize who is throwing to those two targets right? Two of the best 4 QBs in the league (depending on where you put Rodgers and healthy Peyton). And then you have Sanchez throwing to Holmes on an offense that is nowhere near as high powered or pass happy as NO or NE. Put Holmes on either of those two teams with those QB's and you would see HUGE numbers also. I would say teams try to focus on Welker but they also focus on Gronk a lot and Hernandez. Same thing with Colston, you have Graham, Sproles out of the backfield, Meechem, Devery, and Moore. And skill to stats. Victor Cruz has more receptios, yards, TD's than Fitz. Fitz is a better WR and more skillful and talented. One had a top 10 QB throwing to him and two to three other solid targets and the other had John Skeleton and Kolb and no other threat. Plax has more TD's than 20+ WR's including Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Miles Austin, and Pierre Garcon. He is not better than any of those WRs. Should I go on? Holmes is clearly not a "true #1" receiver because he would still put up big numbers if he was. But there are only 4 or 5 of those in the NFL currently. He is a top 20 WR in my opinion and if you put him on NE or NO or GB everyone would be in awe. But he has played on run happy teams and the last two years with a QB who is nowhere near the level of Brees or Brady. Prime example of what a QB can do. Reggie Wayne went 75 receptions for 960 yards this year, last year he went 111 for 1355. Deion Branch all but disappeared in SEA and then came back to NE and put up solid numbers. Fitz lit up the league with Kurt Warner and now has struggled compared to those numbers with Kolb. Brees has also turned a lot of late round picks into solid wide receivers. These are skilled wide receivers but Brees being the one throwing the ball helps tremendously. Another one is Steve Smith with Newton vs Steve Smith without him. To deny that (besides for a handful of wide receivers) wide receiving stats are based on QBs, offensive scheme, and other targets is ridiculous. It clearly is not a 1:1 to correlation between WR stats and skill. I don't know what more to say. I think based on skill alone NE and NO would trade for Holmes. But their QB's have developed a rapport and chemistry wirth their current targets and Holmes' contract is ridiculous. If you want to say Holmes is overpaid I agree 100%. If you want say he isn't a true #1 receiver, I agree 100%. Is he not a great teammate when the going gets tough, yes. But I disagree that skillwise he isn't top 20 WR. Also if we are talking contract/age into the mix then Tone isn't top 20, but based on talent/skill I think he is top 20. I'm not going blame Tone for Tanny overpaying him.
Should you go on ? You can go on and on and on and on as much as you like, that still won't put Santonio Holmes in the top 20 rankings of receivers in the NFL. It just won't. Stop and think about this for a sec. The two people I most vehemently disagree with on the forum are LTJF and Br4dw4y5ux. I mean, we basically NEVER agree on anything, yet we all three seem to agree on this question. That doesn't prove the validity of the assertion, but it does force you to stop and give it some extra consideration presume for sake of argument that all receivers being discussed had the exact same contracts and cap hit. There isn't a coach or GM in the league that would trade they guys being mentioned for Santonio Holmes. Now let's be clear about this. I'm not saying that Holmes isn't talented, clearly, he is. That said, he is NOT "one of the best" in the NFL. He is NOT one of the "Top Ten" WRs in the NFL. He's not even one of the top 20 WRs in the NFL. As you said, he's definitely not a true #1 WR and there are a number of true #1's that are much better than him. There are also quite a few "not true #1's" that are better them him. There are also quite a few #2's that are better than him.
Not only has hell apparently frozen over (with my agreement with LTJF), evidently the world has ceased to spin as well
I've really grown tired of Jet fans finding any reason they can to hate players. This story is completely irrelevant..but there are people on this board who have spent hours finding any reason they can to Bash Holmes & claim he stinks. And it's not just this situation. Giving up/bashing young players who are still trying to develop b/c their initial expectations aren't met. Searching for reasons & rationale to trade the team's best player...arguably franchise's best of all time b/c cornerback is supposed to be a lower impact position. What is wrong with you people?You've lost your way. What happened to supporting your team & athletes? Do you really think constant turnover from year to year is gonna build a winner? How in the world is repeatedly calling Holmes a cancer good for the vibe surrounding this team? how is he supposed improve with crap like we've seen in this thread? I got news for you dark siders...this team finished 8-8 last season...not 4-12.
Well whatever we have been doing up to now has NOT worked since we have now been losers for 43 years & counting. I certainly hope U have that factoid lodged in your brain :sad:
I just don't see how Tone isn't in the top 20 if not the 20th guy. I'm not arguing he is one of the best, being the 20th best wide receiver means you are in the bottom half of the league for main or #1 receivers in the league. There are 32 #1 guys and putting Tone at 16-20 seems spot on to me. Doesn't make me stop and consider anything. If I did change because the 3 of you agree I would be falling for the psychologically trap of being afraid I am wrong and not wanting to be part of the group. I disagree that you can put some #2 receiver ahead of him. The #2 receivers aren't continuously double covered with a slow old man playing across from them at the WR position. Those #2 wide receivers would look like garbage playing in the situation Holmes is in. That is my opinion on this thing. I think receiver play off each other a lot. We as Jets fan saw the benefit of having someone who can stretch the field (Braylon) and Holmes vs someone who couldn't stretch the field (Plax) and Holmes. I also think receivers being in a pass happy offense with better QB's than Sanchez skews the perception of how good of a wide receiver the player really is. Thats the basis of my argument. Obviously you and others disagree, but I think if we were give the players similar circumstances we would see Holmes does belong as a #1 receiver in the league but he is average at it. Hence I put him in the top 20, specifically the 16-20 range. I don't think we can fairly judge #2s and #1s as our perception is too skewed by the system, QB, and opposite WR they have. You obviously disagree with me and that's fine. I was just stating my case for why I think the way I do. It shows you have expectations have changed. Rex did change the culture here, but I guess it also made a lot of fans unrealistic. It also is a forum where fans can overreact and discuss what is going on but I would guess Jets fans as a whole hate the players on their own team the most. They definitely hated their OC the most the past 6 years.
So the Packers season vs the Colts season last year means nothing because neither team won the SB? Yes, the SB is what everything boils down to, but lets not make it seem like records are meaningless... This team finished right in the middle, and Kurt was pointing out that many act like we were drafting in the top 5, which is obviously not true.
I tried making a similar argument to champ like this too. Doesn't get it that although the ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, there are ways you can be closer to winning one than not.
the thing is that while ultimately in the end you are disappointed if you dont win the superbowl its a shit ton of a lot better road to the disappointment if you win 14 games than it is if you win 2. overall your still disappointed but shit at least you got to celebrate 14 times during the year.
If that's the case why are you here? Clearly you gave up a long time ago. You're not content on being a sour puss alone though,right? You want to take every Jet fan along for the ride. Pretty sad actually. In fact alot more sad than the "43 years" you so often allude to.
Good post. And I get it.This franchise & fan base are starved for a championship. The last 3 years we've had the carrot dragged in front of our faces & then yanked away. The Giants bullshit hasn't helped matters either. I just wish I could understand the thought process some people have of just hating on almost every player, constantly wishing for the roster/front office to be overturned, & not allowing young players the chance to develop into the players they were acquired to become. In other words, if the expectations are higher b/c the team has recently had more success than in year's past...why does the franchise get even LESS benefit of the doubt from fans?
Oh, yeah, Santonio was DA MAN when Braylon was here stretching the field for him. I mean, he booked a whopping 746 yards receiving that year. Had he played in all 16 games that year and averaged the same yardage, he would still have narrowly missed 1000 yards. Clearly, one of the best in the NFL!!!! /sarcasm
Yeah but... If you're not going to win the Super Bowl and the talent on the team is not elite it's a lot better to win 2 games, even back to back years, than to win 8 or 9. The Jets have been in this not quite good enough mode now since 1999. 2010 was as close as we've come to having a really championship capable team and even the 2010 team was flawed. What the Jet's player acquisition strategy does is to keep the team competitive but not good enough 3 years out of 5. Then there's a year they're not competitive and a year they get blown out. Something has to change or that pattern is just going to keep repeating itself ad nauseum forever.
