I never blamed everything on Cris Carter but just like w/ Peyton you have a million excuse why guys didn't step up. of course it had to be Brad Johnson's fault, why would you blame Carter? as we know every INT is the fault of the QB and b/c of those 2 picks it was impossible for Carter to do anything to help the team win. carter had 3 recs for 36 yds, make all the excuses you want. A game tying Td in the 1st qtr is not clutch, are you noticing a pattern? he puts up #s in blowout games but in the close ones he doesn't, I wonder why that was? The excuses keep rolling, of course the Minny D sucked. AGAIN, I am not blaming him for every playoff lsos I am simply stating a fact that this man did not show up big in big games/moments. It's great he had 100+ yds and a TD but it was mostly in garbage time. Why couldn't he do that when it mattered? You brought up the TDs, how he was 4th all time in TDs. That's not reg season #s? Obviously you ignor how players play in postseason which is why you think Manning is better than Brady. I do find it interesting that the reasons for manning's struggles are his OL, RBs, WRs, D and w/ Carter I see similar excuses. You need to read what I write, I have NEVER blamed one player for losing all playoff games. i don't blame Manning for all their playoff losses, I think he deserves most of it b/c he is their best player and he doesn't play like it enough in the big games. Why is it ok to give manning all the credit when they win in the reg season but none of the blame when he chokes and they lose in postseason? The Vikings had many goats in those playoff losses, one of which was the overrated Cris Carter who rarely stepped up when his team needed him most. Troy Aikman was a great QB w/o a doubt but minny had some damn good QBs so that excuse doesn't fly. Aikman never had years like Randall had or like Culpepper or even Jeff george. You love #s, the most TDs Aikman ever threw in one season was 23, he was only over 3,000 yds 5 times in his career yet irvin put up 7 1,000 yd seasons and was btw 5-10 TDs most of his career. So they knew he's throwing to Irvin yet he could still put those #s up and he never had a Randy Moss playing opposite him to take attention away from him. The problem w/ that theory is the facts back me up. There's no debate about namath, Carter is less overrated than namath but the facts support me there as well and I think this funkeebeats guy is a 2nd accoutn from another poster. he has 5 posts and 3 are attacking me. Warfield played 13 seasons Warfield was top 10 in recs twice(6th and 9th) Warfield was top 10 in rec yds 4 times(finishes as high as 2nd) Warfield was top 10 in TDs 5 times Warfield was AP twice Carter was better Athletes from the 60s and 70s do not compare to the guys today b/c not only are they fast and quick like those guys(in most cases faster and quicker) but they are much stronger. :rofl: I love it, his post gives us nothing but his typical excuses. neither one of you guys have presented a good case. You still need to put up some reg season #s too. he was great in postseason but not very good in reg seasons. Swann 9 seasons top 10 in recs twice(7th both times) top 10 in yds 3 times(highest was 4th) top 10 in rec TDs 3 times, led once That's not enough against his peers to get to the HOF. His postseason #s help get him closer but he does not belong anywhere near the HOF much like Art Monk who put up similar #s against his peers w/o the postseason success.
This is amazing. I love your argument that my facts are excuses. Don’t blame the QB?!?! The QB is supposed to lead the team. Johnson was late on a pass over the middle that was picked off by George Teague and ran back for a TD. Yeah, that’s Carter’s fault! Carter had 3 catches 36 yards and a TD. Did Carter have 2 TDs in the 49ers game? One tied the game early, and the second got them back in it. He came thru there didn’t he. Garbage time? I’m not even sure which game you are referencing because I didn’t list any games where he had 100+ yards. I can only assume that you are talking about the 49ers game where I mentioned he had 93 yards and TWO TDs and now you are claiming he got them in garbage time. Just admit you don’t have a clue what Carter did in those games. “of course the Munny D sucked” – are you suggesting they didn’t? If so, provide us with some information as to why you feel that the Vikings D did not suck. I’m very interested. Touchdowns are an important statistic correct? You brought up receptions and yards I did not. No, I don’t. I’m just not dumb enough to put it all on one guy win or lose. And I’ve never heard of a receiver being the reason (excuse me, the main reason) why a team lost a game unless it was because of drops or a fumble. Carter wasn’t the reason Minny lost the playoff games. It’s foolish to even think he did. How so? Did he fumble the ball away? Did he drop a lot of passes? How did he not step up? What should he have done more? I’ve got the solution! He should have played QB, then threw the ball to himself then blocked for himself while running down the field and scoring. Then kick the PAT. Then kickoff, play defense and shut down the opponent. Get the ball back and do it all over again!!! Please list all of the goats Minny had in those playoff games and tell us all why they are goats. See – here you are again bringing up fantasy numbers. See how I don’t bring them up? Randall Cunningham had a great year in 1998 because he was throwing to Cris Carter and Randy Moss. Same w/ Culpepper and George. How about backing it up to the earlier part of the decade when he had an aging Warren Moon, or a mediocre Brad Johnson, or a pre Hackett Rich Gannon or Sean Salisbury or Jim McMahon?! All of those great QBs!!! Despite playing with average QBs he still put up big numbers. Actually, the facts do not support you here. You’re a little out of your league if you actually believe Cris Carter was better than Paul Warfield. Facts = excuses!?!?! HAHAHAHAHA pathetic I know my case isn’t good enough when I post factual data. I don’t make up theories like Cris Carter never came thru for the Vikings in a big time situation. So wait….Regular season numbers matter, but earlier you said that it only matters how you play when the stakes are the highest. Swann’s numbers were never that high because the Steelers did not throw that much. From 1974 – 1977 the Steelers threw the ball the 4th least amount of times (not including the two expansion teams). And on the other side of field was John Stallworth who also commanded the ball. So when you don’t throw much and have two superstar receivers that share the receptions of course their numbers wouldn’t be at the top. Or is that just another excuse?
One thing I meant to comment on Defenses knew they were throwing to Irvin?!?! Really?!? I would think defenses were more concerned about stopping Emmitt Smith and the running game. When it came to the passing game Irvin was the main receiver but if you drew your coverage towards him Harper would kill you on the other side, or Novacek over the middle or Emmitt out of the backfield. So they could never focus all of their attention towards Michael Irvin.
Your supposd facts are excuses. For manning you tell me it was the OL, the WR ran the wrong route, his D sucked, his K sucked, etc... and now for Carter you are using the QB excuse, RB excuse and D excuse. The QB is supposed to lead them team- how come this doesn't apply to Manning? Minny got blown out, he put up great #s in that SF game- why is it he only put up good #s in blowouts? where was this guy when his teams needed him most in close playoff games? TDs are #s, right? you said you didn't bring up and reg season #s. That wasn't true. I don't put it all on one guy but the best players are expected to step up in the biggest games, that didn't happen w/ Carter. Please READ what I am writing- I am not blaming Carter for all the playoff failures, I'm saying he didn't do aything to change it. If he makes plays in the reg season and does not in postseason that is not stepping up. I am bringing up facts, Aikman is much better than his #s showed. I posted those #s b/c he did not post great reg season #s yet Irvin posted great reg season #s. he was his main receiving threat commanding the attention of the defense and he still found ways to produce w/ less opportunities than Carter. So you do admit those QBs had great years then, right? They were average QBs? Cunningham won 2 NFL MVPs(one w/o Carter as a main weapon) Brad Johnson led 3 teams to postseason and won a Super Bowl Daunte Culpepper made 2 PBs w/o Carter Jeff George led 2 teams to postseason He had more than enough quality at the QB position to succeed. The facts do support me, the excuses support you. Warfield(13 seasons) Carter(16 seasons) -Top 10 in recs twice(15%), carter 8 times(50%) -Top 10 in rec yds 4 times(31%), Carter 5 times(31%) -Top 10 in rec TDs 6 times(46%), Carter 8 times(50%) This is one of those "you had to see him play" arguments and clearly you did not see Warfield play so you cannot play that card on me. What factual data? that Cris scored a TD in the 1st qtr of a blowout loss? How can you not see it? W/ manning yo blame everyone but the QB, w/ Carter it's everyone but the WR. It's comical. Reading is not your friend, I have never said reg season #s do not count. I said I weigh postseason more heavily but you need to have good reg season #s. That's great that the Steelers didn't throw much but those are the breaks. later in his career they threw a ton and he still wasn't putting up good #s. Stallworth was better than Swann but he was not a superstar either. Neither guy belongs in the Hall, there are way too many Steelers in the HOF especially on O when they won w/ defense. from 1975-1982 w/ Swann Stallworth averaged: 3.3 recs per game 58.3 yds per game .48 TDs per game From 1983-1987 w/o Swann Stallworth averaged: 4 recs per game 58 yds per game .32 TDs per game If the reason Swann didn't put up big #s was b/c of the "superstar" on the other side, how come Stallworth's #s didn't go up overall after Swann retired? THESE are facts not excuses.
I missed this. Alvin Harper was nothing more than an average WR, check out what he did when he left Dallas. heck, in dallas he didn't do anything special. Michael Irvin was getting most of the attention in the pass game, opening things up for an average WR like Harper and for Novacek who was nothing before he went to Dallas.
He made plays prior to the games being blowouts. I know, I know. They don’t write that in the box score so how could you possibly know that. He is not overrated. You provide false reasons for why you call him overrated. You’d at least have an argument if these reasons were factual. Who cares how many yards he had? What does that prove? Carter wasn’t a big yardage guy anyway. He was a reception and TD guy. Only once did he score a TD when the game was out of hand. When they doubled Michael over the top Aikman would hit Novacek, Harper or Emmitt. When the defenses adjusted their coverage Aikman would hit Irvin. Irvin was also the primary target on their favorite pass play the bang-8 Hardly. I can thru each of them if you really want to, but none of them were good NFL QBs (besides Moon) w/o Carter and/or Moss. Brad Johnson won a SB because of a big time defense, Jeff George was a terrible NFL QB who had a cannon and failed everywhere else he played. AP MVP is the award that is recognized by the NFL not some newspaper association or the Pro football weekly. It’s nice award for Randall, but it’s not the official MVP award. Brad Johnson was average. His career in the postseason 7 TDs 12 INTs. In his lone postseason game w/ Minny he threw 2 INTs – one of which was returned for a TD. Culpepper was a poor man’s Manning?!?! Culpepper sucked. He couldn’t read defenses. He had a cannon of an arm and moved out of the pocked well (before his injury) and threw downfield to the best receiver in the game. I didn’t say you said Warfield sucked, but Warfield was better than Carter. Who cares if you compared Warfield to his peers if Warfield played on teams that ran the ball a majority of the time. Again, I laugh when you call facts excuses. It just proves more and more to me. Cleveland was 12 out of 16 NFL teams in pass attempts during the years that Warfield was there. Miami was 26th out of 26 teams in pass attempts during the years that Warfield was there. Really? How many catches / yards and TDs did he have after the point where the game was a blowout? Stallworth’s numbers did go up. From 74-77 he averaged 1.9 rec / gm for 34.5 yds/gm and .3 TDs/Gm. From 78-85 he averaged 3.9 rec/gm for 64 yds/gm and .5 TDs / gm. Age and injuries started catching up to him in 86-87. The Steelers threw the ball more from 78-82 than they did from 74-77 but not a “heck of a lot more”. It was 4 more passes per game. Unfortunately for you, I have been the one providing actual facts.
Actually I have thousands of games. I don't blame one person or the other. I give actual facts as to what happened. I have made a solid argument and have refuted your incorrect arguments over and over again. I have given you factual information while you provide nonsense.
Alvin Harper went to the Buccaneers...The terrible Buccaneers. Novacek started to develop into a good receiving TE before going to the Cowboys.
Just because Novacek didn't get a chance to play much for the Cardinals doesn't discount how good a player he was. The guy made all pro for five straight years. Teams had a lot of other problems with the Cowboys offense than just Michael Irvin.
its complete jibberish :grin: to think that Cris Carter holds a majority of the blame. Take the 1993 Playoff game against the Giants as an example. The game conditions are brutal with howling winds. The Giants are pounding McMahon all over the field - knocking him out of the game twice - and still he catches 4 passes for 83 yards and a 40-yd TD. How about the 1992 playoff game against the Redskins. Salisbury was the QB for the Vikings and was awful completing only 6 of 20 passes for 113 yards and threw 2 INTs. However, 77 of those yards went to Cris Carter on 3 receptions. The Redskins held on to the ball in that game for 42:43! But yet, somehow Cris Carter didn't step up in that game :breakdance:
Yep and those plays helped to keep the games close, right? You make a big deal b/c he scored a TD to tie a game at 7 in the 1st qtr. I provide valid reasons, you provide excuses. Yards and recs only count when you say they count. Irvin was always drawing more attention than the other receivers, that is not debateable. Miraculously he still found a way to make big plays when it mattered most. All those QBs ahd success w/ and w/o Carter. How many SBs did that big time D win before and after Brad? Jeff George was a good fantasy QB, he's like Cutler is today and he did lead 2 teams to postseason(one w/o carter). The excuses just baffle me. No matter who you are arguing for you always blame everyone around that player and never give that player any responsibilty. don't you find that strange? Regardless of the award he had some great seasons w/ and w/o Carter. Brad Johnson led THREE different teams to the postseason and won a SB. He threw 5 TDs and 3 INTs in their SB run, that's better than 3 TDs and 7 INTs, right? Weren't you one of the peple arguing w/ me about Culpepper a few years back? Why the change? Culpepper was not a great QB but he always put up #s and tey threw alot. Your point about Warfield's teams running more was comparing him to the pass happy Carter teams. I caught you in that excuse b/c I wasn't comparing the players #s. You have an excuse for everything. In cleveland they averaed 367 pass attempts a game(prorate that to a 16 game season and that's 420 passes a year). Roethlisberger has averaged 402 attempts per year in his first 6 seasons yest he has had ultra productive WRs. This shatters another excuse for you. I showed you Stallworth's #s, his recs a game went up slightly(despite throwing alot more), his yds were about the same and his TDs were down. You blame everyone but the guy you are arguing for. Peyton throws a game ending INT in the SB and it was the WRs fault, carter doesn't show up in big games and it was the QBs fault. He went to Tampa in 1995 and TB was 7-9, they were 6-10 in Dungy's 1st year the following year and then after they let him go they made the playoffs in 1997. The terrible excuse doesn't fly. Novacek was barely an average TE w/ SL/Phoenix, he took off in Dallas. Whose fault is that? he spent 5 years w/ the Cards and couldn't become a starter behind such great TEs like Doug Marsh and Robert Awalt. your reading comprehension is not working again. Where did I say carter holds the majority of the blame? you are great at making excuses and deflecting from the actual points.
This sums it up pretty well. Everything that you have to say should be taken as gospel, nothing anyone else says is correct. This is why no one wants to play with you.
You do know that Cris Carter didn’t play special teams and defense right? You provide made up reasons, I provide facts. I know my factual information may seem to you like excuses when the facts don’t match up with you imagination. Yards weren’t a big part of Carter’s game. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Yes, Irvin was drawing more attention than the other receivers because he was better. But the defenses NEVER focused all of their attention on him. Their goal was to stop Emmitt. When they did roll their coverage toward Irvin, Aikman made them pay by going to Harper, Novacek or Emmitt out of the backfield. Please tell me you don’t think the Bucs won the SB because of Brad Johnson?!? There you go bringing up fantasy again. I’d give Carter the blame if he dropped a key pass or multiple passes or fumbled the ball. You haven’t provided me with any information that says he did any of that. And he had his best year throwing to Carter and Moss. Brad Johnson was not a great QB and he was the 5th QB Carter had to play with in 6 years. Um, no I don’t believe I ever had an argument about Culpepper. He was terrible. I think your imagination is running wild on you again. I never said you were comparing Warfield’s numbers with Carter’s. I said Warfield’s numbers are lower (than his contemporaries) was because his teams ran the ball more. Then I provided you with more factual data to back that up. Cleveland averaged 367 pass attempts a game? Cleveland averaged 25.5 attempts / game during Warfield’s years there which was 12th out of 16 in the NFL. You do realize that the passing game was different in the late 60’s than it is today right? From 74-77 he caught 2 passes a game for 34 yds / gm and .3 TDs/Gm. From 1978-1985 he caught 4 passes a game for 64yds/Gm and .5 TDs / game. That’s before the passing rules and after the passing rules during his prime years. That’s great, except Carter did show up in big games. The Buccaneers were terrible. Dungy built a defense which led the team to the playoffs. There offenses stunk. Novacek was caught a good amount of passes despite being the back up TE. He was developing nicely. He developed nicely while he was with the Cardinals. Actually, you've said this a few times. Yes, I know deflecting your imagined, made up points with factual data = making excuses! This is laughable. Keep it up. Seriously. I’m actually laughing out loud here. Is it Cris Carter’s fault that the Redskins held the ball for 42:43? Can you please answer that question for me!
That's fine, if we wwere two anonymous posters arguing more people would be siding w/ me. This is the same thing like Brady vs. manning where it's everyone else's fault but the guy he is arguing for. He had 8 consectuive 1,000 yd rec seasons, I don't want to hear about yards. Here's that reading thing again, who said D's focused all of their attention on Irvin? The Bucs didn't win the SB b/c of Brad but he played a major role just like Dilfer did w/ Baltimore. You don't have to put up eye popping #s to win a SB, you need to make plays and Brad did that. Prior to Brad those great Tampa D's weren't enough to even get to a SB let alone win one. You wouldn't blame Carter b/c it hurts your argument, you are arguing for him and have for manning so you make excuses for their poor play in postseason. He did have his best year w/ Moss and Carter though Moss was the main reason why. No one said Brad Johnson was a great QB. PLEASE READ WHAT I POST. Brad was a good QB, he played with good QBs for the majority of his career. None of the QBs Carter played with were great QBs though they did have a few great seasons but you don't need a great QB to be a great WR. he was a great WR until he disappeared when his QBs needed him most. Cle threw enough to put up #s. In his first stint w/ Cle he played 5 full seasons and he only led the team in recs twice(tied once and Gary Collins led twice). In his 5 years in Miami he led them 3 times. In his 10 prime seasons he only led his team in recs 5 times. I know he was great but Carter was better. In 1978 Swann was still on the team, you told me how there weren't enough balls to go around for the two "superstar" WRs, I showed you how his production was basically the same after Swann retired. 7-9 and 6-10 are not good but they are far from terrible. In '95 he was the 2nd leading receiver on the team and only had 5 more recs than Courtney hawkins. In '96 he missed some games and didn't produce and he was gone after that year. They were building but they were far from terrible. Harper was nothing w/o Irvin. Yes, he was great as he couldn't even beat out two bum TEs. Show me where I said Carter deserves the majority of the blame? so b/c his O had the ball for 20 mins that meant he couldn't make a play? maybe if he could they could have moved the chains and held onto the ball? You don't see it? You told me I said Carter was the major reason why they lost. Do you not see the difference btw that and being A major reason why they lost or was A big PART of the problem?
I must have the same reading comprehension issue because both seem about the same to me. If losing is a problem then a major reason for losing would be a big part of that problem. What am I missing? ------------------------------------------ Also, a "good" quarterback like Brad Smith does not compare to a HOF quarterback like Troy Aikman. If Irvin is better than Cris Carter, claiming that Carter had "good" QBs like Brad Smith does not help you make that point.
You guys are claiming I am blaming Carter as the biggest reason why they lost. The quotes he posted I wrote: "The teams he played for always disappointed in January and he was a major reason why" "Cris Carter was a big part of the problem." Do I really need to explain this? My 2 quotes said he was A major/big part meaning he was one of the main culprits. What you guys are accusing me of saying is that it was ALL Carter's fault and he alone takes the blame. I'm not sure what the Brad Smith comment means.
Your comments about Cris Carter that he didn't step up in big games at least implies that it was his fault that he lost. Any attempts to prove otherwise with information about his performances in those games was referred to you as "making excuses". Are you really surprised that your quotes are taken in the context that they have been? ================================ I meant Brad Johnson.
