The amount of bullshit that Junc posts on this site is sickening. Namath is overrated and now Chris Carter is overrated, really? WTF is wrong with you?
Give me a list and I'll rank them. I am not saying he doesn;'t deserve to make the Hall, I am just saying he is overrated. people think b/c of his #s he's up there w/ Rice and that's not the case. he played in an era where WR #s were inflated. He played w/ good QBs, let's throw that excuse out the window now. Larry Fitz is on pace for almost 110 yds w/ absolute garbage at QB this year, Keyshawn had over 1,000 yds w/ ray Lucas and Rick Mirer as his QBs. The top WRs will still put up #s. 1. They had a great offense as did many of those Minny teams, Irvin was as big a part of those O's as any player on those great teams. 2. Cris Carter was a big part of the problem. I love how it is always someone else's fault, when does the player take responsibilty? why couldn't he make a play when it mattered? Carter had a top RB most of his career, he had very good WRs opposite him including a few years w/ Randy Moss(which irvin never had. the best he ahd was Alvin harper who wasn't even as good as Jake Reed or Qadry Ismail). Mike Williams has had a great rookie year, 2010 Randy has quit but that doesn't take away from all he has done in the past. He was a much better player than Cris Carter.
Here is the list: Members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame: Lance Alworth, wide receiver Raymond Berry, end Fred Biletnikoff, wide receiver Guy Chamberlin, end-coach Tom Fears, end Bob Hayes, wide receiver Bill Hewitt, end Don Hutson, end Michael Irvin, wide receiver Charlie Joiner, wide receiver Steve Largent, wide receiver Dante Lavelli, end James Lofton, wide receiver Don Maynard, wide receiver Tommy McDonald, wide receiver Wayne Millner, end Bobby Mitchell, running back-wide receiver Art Monk, wide receiver Pete Pihos, end John Stallworth, wide receiver Lynn Swann, wide receiver Charley Taylor, running back-wide receiver Paul Warfield, wide receiver --------------------------- Tim Brown WR - not in HOF Andre Reed WR - not in HOF Art Powell WR - not in HOF
Putting aside the real old timers, from this list I would rank him ahead of: Swann- does not belong Monk- does not belong Joiner Lofton Stallworth Warfield Tim Brown
I am not sure who you are classifying as an old timer. Just so we are clear, who are you ranking above Cris Carter?
guys who I did not include in the discussion: Guy Chamberlin Tom Fears Bill Hewitt Dante Lavelli Don Hutson(though a great cae can be made for him being the best ever) Tommy McDonald Wayne Millner Bobby Mitchell Pete Pihos Charley Taylor
So by process of elimination this is your list of who is better than Cris Carter: Lance Alworth, wide receiver Raymond Berry, end Fred Biletnikoff, wide receiver Bob Hayes, wide receiver Michael Irvin, wide receiver Steve Largent, wide receiver Don Maynard, wide receiver -------------------------- Andre Reed WR - not in HOF Art Powell WR - not in HOF Not as good as Cris Carter Charlie Joiner, wide receiver James Lofton, wide receiver Art Monk, wide receiver John Stallworth, wide receiver Lynn Swann, wide receiver Paul Warfield, wide receiver --------------------------- Tim Brown WR - not in HOF Not rated by Junc: Guy Chamberlin, end-coach Tom Fears, end Bill Hewitt, end Don Hutson, end Dante Lavelli, end Tommy McDonald, wide receiver Wayne Millner, end Bobby Mitchell, running back-wide receiver Pete Pihos, end Charley Taylor, running back-wide receiver I must have an old HOF list because Rice isn't on it. Including Rice and Hutson you have Cris Carter as the # 12 WR of all time. Are you really sure that all nine of those guys not named Rice and Hutson are better than Cris Carter?
Take Powell off that list and put him w/ the old timer list and I didn't see Bob Hayes, put Carter ahead of him. yes I am sure.
Based upon the logic you have used so far, how does Largent rate higher than Carter when he hasn't had any success in the playoffs either? I would also question what Andre Reed has done that puts him ahead of Carter as well. Raymond Berry had excellent hands and ran great routes but so did Carter. Carter was also more athletic than Berry. How does Berry rate above Carter? I think we have already talked about Irvin. Its funny that you talk about the bloated stats of this era and have two AFL players ranked very highly (Alworth and Maynard). I don't know that they were better than Cris Carter but they were very good so I could see you making a strong arguement, especially for Alworth. I would love to see who is more popular in Raider nation between Brown and Biletnikoff. I am thinking that you are pushing him ahead of Carter for his post season success. Considering that you are calling Cris Carter overrated and a choker you still have him rated at about the midpoint of hall of fame receivers. If he is that good why shouldn't he have gone in on the first ballot like Irvin and others have?
Steve played in 7 playoff games, Carter 14. Remember that Steve played on an expansion team in the pre-FA era so it took a while to get good and once they were good he was heading into the twilight of his career. 100 yd games: Steve 2 in 7(29% of games) Carter 2 in 14(14%) edge Steve Steve 4 TDs(57%) Carter 8 TDs(57%) edge even reg season: recs: Steve(14 seasons) top 10 nine times(highest finish was 3rd) Carter(16 seasons) top 10 eight times(led once) edge Steve rec yds: SL: top 10 8 times(led twice) CC: top 10 5 tims(highest finish 7th)edge Steve rec TDs: SL: top 10 8 times(finished 2nd twice) CC: top 10 8 times(led 3 times) edge Carter Andre Reed is very debateable, I rank him higher b/c I saw Reed do more in big games but i can be swayed on this one towards Carter. All the WRs of this past generation are more athletic than guys from the 50-70s/80s. Berry(13 seasons) 3 time 1st team all pro(carter made it twice in 16 seasons) led NFL in recs 3 times, top 10 8 times led NFL in rec yds 3 times, top 10 6 times led NFL in rec TDs twice, top 10 6 times '58 title game had 12 recs for 178 yds and a TD(only played 3 postseason games) Yes, I am pushing him ahead b/c of postseason success. he won a SB MVP, in 2 postseason games in '68 he had 370 total rec yds. he played the same # of playoff games as Carter: FB: 70, 1167, 16.8, 10 TDs CC: 63, 870, 13.8, 8 TDs Overrated does not mean he was bad, he deserves to be in the Hall. I think some people see his stats and think he was up there w/ Rice or that he was this unstoppable force. He was a great WR but ther are different levels of greatness and I don't have him at the highest level.
Most of your post made sense. However, if Carter led the entire league in receptions and the best that Largent ever did was to come in third Carter should get the edge even if Largent had one more tio 10 season. One great season (best in NFL) trumps one good season (top 10). Also, if their playoff stats are similar on a per game basis but Carter played in twice as many playoff games and had double the career playoff stats he has had more post season success. By the logic you used with Reed and Bilitnekof he would be the superior player if they were otherwise even. -------------------------------- Not sure who Berry was competing with to be tops in the NFL at WR. Carter had to compete with Jerry Rice for his rankings. Did Berry win by default or were there other HOF or borderline HOF stud WRs in his day? -------------------------------- The bottom line is this. If you want to say that Don Hutson, Jerry Rice, and possibly some current players are in a class by themselves I could buy that. To say that Cris Carter is overrated or that he didn't get robbed by the HOF voters is unfair to a guy that we seem to agree is one of the best 5-8 receivers that has come up for a vote so far.
Murrell2878 v. nyjunc v. James Hasty in a Hall of Fame debate/argument Question to self: Should I jump in this one or let this one pass?
Okay, I just skimmed through the thread. Thought it was about Carter's candidacy. I'm still debating. It is not a bad thing really, but Murrell2878 v. nyjunc v. James Hasty debates with me thrown in have been very long in the past.
I have to take these one by one. He was quite productive in Chicago game. 8 receptions including a TD despite Warren Moon's injured knee who was then benched for Sean Salisbury after throwing 2 INTs. But somehow that's Cris Carter's fault they lost that game. Really, so you're saying it's not the QBs fault? Brad Johnson was terrible in that 96 playoff game. Brad Johnson threw 2 INTs including one that went for a TD. I suppose it's Carters fault that Amp Lee fumbled before going into the endzone or maybe it's Carters fault that Leroy Hoard fumbled to go along with the INTs obviously being Carters fault. I love it when you go all childish. However, a game tying TD in the playoffs is clutch. But you're right, the player that had 6 receptions 93 yds and 2 TDs in a playoff game is definitely the one to blame for the loss Yep, Carter wasn't playing very well on defense that day. Jeff George did not play well until the game was way out of hand. I've never seen someone actually blame a receiver for the poor play of the defense and the QB before. This is facinating. However, you're right the double team that Carter beat for the TD was not clutch. But it's his fault that Moe Williams fumbled the ball or Jeff Christy's bad snap that led to a TD. And it's Cris Carter's fault that the special teams allowed a 95 yd KOR for a TD by Tony Horne. You're the one who brought up his regular season numbers not me. I don't ignore how players play in the postseason. But you're trying to convince everyone that Cris Carter is the reason the Vikings lost all those games in the postseason. I doubt anyone is actually buying it though. Carter's TDs early in those games kept the Vikings in the game. I find it disturbing how you always blame one player for a win or loss. I'm really suprised you are actually trying to make an argument that Carter is the reason for the Vikings losses. Why didn't the Vikings defense prevent the opponents from scoring? Why did Vikings QBs throw INTs (some of which were returned for TDs), why did all of a sudden Vikings RBs have fumbling problems...Oh right....it's Cris Carter's fault. Irvin had Aikman as his QB throughout the 90's while Carter was constantly given a new QB to work with and still put up big time numbers. Carter had a two year start? Carter's career started 1 year before Brown's did.
Carter was not better than Warfield. Warfield might be the 4th best wideout of all-time after Rice, Hutson, and Alworth. Warfield received All-Pro recognition in 8 of his 12 full seasons and he was a no-doubter 1st ballot Hall selection. Alworth, Warfield, Hayes, Stallworth, and Swann were more athletic than many WRs of this past generation. Berry played from 1955-67. Here are the ends who received All-Pro recognition in those seasons (Hall of Famers in bold)- 1955- Tom Fears, Harlon Hill, Billy Howton, Pete Pihos, Kyle Rote, Billy Wilson 1956- Darrel Brewster, Harlon Hill, Elroy Hirsch, Billy Howton, Kyle Rote, Billy Wilson 1957- Raymond Berry, Darrel Brewster, Clyde Conner, Billy Howton, Jim Mutscheller, Billy Wilson 1958- Raymond Berry, Jimmy Orr, Pete Retzlaff, Del Shofner, Billy Wilson 1959- Raymond Berry, Billy Howton, Tommy McDonald, Jimmy Orr, Ray Renfro, Bob Schnelker, Del Shofner 1960- Raymond Berry, Willard Dewveall, Tommy McDonald, R.C. Owens, Jim Phillips, Sonny Randle, Kyle Rote 1961- Raymond Berry, Buddy Dial, Mike Ditka, Jim Phillips, Del Shofner 1962- Gail Cogdill, Tommy McDonald, Bobby Mitchell, Sonny Randle, Del Shofner 1963- Terry Barr, Gail Cogdill, Bobby Joe Conrad, Buddy Dial, Bobby Mitchell, Sonny Randle, Del Shofner 1964- Frank Clarke, Gail Cogdill, Bobby Joe Conrad, Bobby Mitchell, Johnny Morris, Paul Warfield 1965- Raymond Berry, Gary Collins, Bob Hayes, Jimmy Orr, Dave Parks 1966- Gary Collins, Bob Hayes, Dave Parks, Pat Studstill, Charley Taylor 1967- Bob Hayes, Homer Jones, Willie Richardson, Charley Taylor note: Prior to 1962, all receivers were lumped together as ends. This is why Berry was competing with Ditka for All-Pro votes in 1961.
I knew I gave junc more than enough rope to hang himself and was looking forward to other posters calling him on his BS but I just have to say that your post exceeded my wildest expectations. Excellent post, my hat is off to you.
