O'Brien had Al Toon, Wesley Walker, Chris Burkett, Rob Moore, Mickey Shuler, Freeman McNeil, Johnny Hector, ... Save your time, that poster is completely clueless. he's one of those guys that sees a QB is sacked and automatically assumes it is the fault of the OL.
O'Brien went to the pro bowl in 1991 and led the 8-8 Jets to a playoff appearance against the Oilers. Coslet rewarded O'Brien for these achievements by benching him in favor of Browning Nagle the following year. The team was ravaged by age and injuries while O'Brien's was our QB. It wasn't just Wesley Walker but also the defense that fell off a cliff in the late 80s. By 1988 the entire sack exachange was gone.
Walker, Shuler, and McNeil were all drafted before O'Brien. Like most of the best players around him, they were past their prime by the late 80s. Chris Burkett was one hell of a special teams player but if you want to compare him to Moss, Coles, Cherbet, etc. you have to be kidding. Rob Moore was a rookie in 1990, he dropped a lot of passes that year. He helped O'Brien get to a pro bowl in 1991 but that was about it. When the QB gets sacked, the whole offense shares the blame. Becht didn't scare anyone down the field but he was an outstanding blocker. Curtis Martin, Richie Anderson, and Gerald Sowell were also excellent blockers as well on passing plays. Except for the Raider game in the playoffs, Chad had all day in the pocket during most games. O'Brien was not a scrambling QB and he looked for the deep pass but few guys had his accuracy on the deep ball.
What does 1988 have to do w/ anything? His best years were '85 and '86 and he couldn't win a playoff game in '85 and cost us one in '86.
McNeil was drafted in '81, O'Brien '83 Mickey was '78 walker was '77 These guys were not old when kenny was drafted. Chad had Moss and Coles for one year and it was Moss first year playing(after missing most of '01) so let's not act like it was santana at his peak, wayne at his peak and coles at his peak. Walker, Toon, Shuler were a better triple threat than Coles, Chrebet, Moss in 2002. You know why O'brien made the PB in 1991, right? it was b/c about 4-5 guys dropped out. he threw 10 TDs and 11 INTs and led us to an 8-8 record, is that a pro bowl year? Yes, Becht was an outstanding blocker in the run game but he was near useless in the passing game. Richie Anderson wasn't excellent at anything, that man gets so overrated b/c of the 90 dumpoffs to him in 2000 when we had no other options. Answer this question. If Kenny was so incredibly accurate how come he was the main reason Al Too retired early w/ errant throws that got Toon crushed? We had good OLs in most years when Kenny was playing.
The year we started 10-1, here are just some of the injuries incurred as we lost the last 5 regular season games: December 13, Hurt Finish But the Green & White lost their last five games and limped into the playoffs because of a rash of injuries to key players. Pro Bowl LB Lance Mehl was lost for the season with a knee injury (Oct. 26). DE Mark Gastineau suffered a knee injury in the Colts win that cost him the rest of the regular season. And NT Joe Klecko and OT Reggie McElroy both needed reconstructive surgery after knee injuries vs. Pittsburgh.
IS, Again, Walker was not at a hundred percent in either 85 or 86. 2003 - The passing game was oriented towards the short game Chad had to go to. While Moss had 74 catches, Becht, Martin, Sowell all were in the 40's, along with Conway at #2 wr getting 46. Chrebet had 27, and all wideouts caught 147 passes for the year. Toon and Walker had only 134 in 86, in which year the overall pass completed number for O'Brien was 334 compared to 314 for Chad. The main difference there was that at TE Shuler and Klever caught many more than Becht and Baker. Ftr I know that O'Brien also had a pretty good number of receivers in Hector, McNeil and even Paige out of the backfield. But it was Shuler, Toon and Walker around whom the Jets oriented their attack. Again, that was at least partly a function of O'Brien's vertical passing game v. the short one Chad used. As far as your longevity argument, and how long it took O'Brien to leave after the team declined, that is a strange argument for Chad. Chad only really played five years for the Jets, with only 61 starts. O'Brien started 106 games for the Jets. Chad would have been dead before he would have ever reached that many. We'll have to agree to disagree about what influence of Parcells remained, but of course BP was still running the FO while Groh was HC, so it was really only bringing in the Edwards Bradway regime that replaced BP. "Put me in a big game with both guys healthy" - the irony. Part of the issue with Chad is that he was rarely healthy, and what healthy meant when applied to him was still very fragile. O'Brien was MUCH tougher, and much healthier than Chad. People like to say Mickey Mantle could have been the best baseball player ever, but he had too many ailments. Well, he wasn't the best baseball player ever, because he did have those ailments. The question in any event is not whether someone like yourself can make the argument that Chad when healthy in a single game was better than O'Brien. I never saw Chad play a game like the one the Jets beat Miami 51-45, and as others have noted that was not even Kenny's best game. So I think your argument is debatable at best. But over the course of their respective careers, O'Brien was better and contributed more to the Jets.
We were very banged up in 1986 including O'Brien whose career was ruined w/ his shoulder injury in 1986. Injuries are part of the game, Chad suffered them too but he came back and had better seasons, he even won a playoff game w/ a torn rotator cuff in his throwing shoulder while our best defensive player missed the game b/c of injury.
I'm not saying it was O'Brien's fault the rest of the team got old, but as he got older he didn't really improve or become the guy to lead us. His best years were his first two when he had the good team around him. Even as they rebuilt, you mentioned 1991, O'Brien was a mixed bag. I'm pretty sure he was a replacement in that Pro Bowl, unless he beat out Marino, Elway, Boomer and Kelly which I doubt. The end of the Miami game to get us in the playoffs he was awesome, got us down the field in less than a minute to set up Allegre's FG. But the week before we lost 6-3 to a bad New England team at home or we're not in that situation in the first place, the following week in the playoffs we couldn't score inside the 10 when we needed to. He had fleeting moments of brilliance which brought back the promise of when he was young but he never sustained it. When you look back now, we all remember the last drive at Miami but rarely the game before it or the game after it. I didn't agree with how Coslet handled him either, bringing Boomer in and giving him #7 in a press conference with O'Brien still on the team to me was a disgrace. I think he got a bad rap to a degree, and he was always first class in handling everything, I don't think he ever complained in the ten years he was here. I just think people look back now with a rosier view of what he was, like that highlight clip. That's the stuff we remember. With Pennington it's much more recent, a lot of the losses and disappointments still hurt more. Twenty years from now people will look back at the end of 2002, the Indy playoff game, or San Diego or whatever and forget the bad stuff. The majority, anyway.
Yeah, Mehl going down was a huge loss. He was at that point the best player on D (although Clifton was a tackling machine). By then Klecko Lyons and Gastineau were shadows of their former selves, and the OL was banged up pretty good, too. Only Sweeney and Alexander started all 16 games (Banker started 13, but Fields, Bingham only 9 and McElroy 8).
No doubt O'Brien was more durable and played a lot more games, that's the only reason this is even up for debate. As nyjunc just said, Chad won more playoff games with the torn rotator cuff than O'Brien ever did. O'Brien was more of a highlight reel guy than Chad, a product of the time, the offense and his physical tools. Like I said above, you can hang your hat on individual games like 51-45, the 1991 finale, or beating the Giants with Toon in 1988, but you can say the same thing about Chad in a lot less games. Very few guys in Jet history played a game like 51-45, Namath and Unitas had one back in the day, at the same time I don't remember any QB hanging a 42-10 beating on a 12-3 opponent with the division title on the line and a 41-0 beating in a playoff game six days later. In all cases we're talking about team efforts of course, but the QB still runs the game.
Since Salaam was already retired and Lyons was also hurt, the whole sack exchange was closed for business. This article includes the injury to Lyons: Once-Mighty Jets Have Fallen to Injuries Misery Has Company as New York's Defense Is Brought to Its Knees November 30, 1986|CHRIS DUFRESNE | Times Staff Writer EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. — The New York Jets had a nice little season going until a rash of injuries turned a once-proud defensive line into mush. There's some talk now of the Jets not winning another game this season. That's serious stuff for a team that's 10-2 and still leading the AFC East. But the Jets are reeling. Really. Apparently, more than a few people witnessed last Monday night's 45-3 loss to Miami, a game in which Dolphin running back Lorenzo Hampton, of all people, rushed for 148 yards against the NFL's best defense against the run. Well, it used to be the best. Ah, but did you take a close look at the Jets' defensive line? Did you notice that run busters Joe Klecko, Mark Gastineau and Marty Lyons had been replaced by three guys named Ben, Tom, and Barry? No, these aren't the same Jets that once graced the playing fields of New Jersey. Out of today's game against the Rams are: --Defensive end, Gastineau. Injury: knee. The flamboyant one has just two sacks this season and the Jets will be lucky to get him back for the playoffs. --Defensive end, Lyons. Injury: shoulder. The steady veteran can't raise his right arm to shield his eyes from all the trouble. The Rams will see Lyons today on the sidelines--in a sling. He may be back by the end of the regular season. --Nose tackle, Klecko. Injury: knee. The great All-Pro will be in uniform today but is very doubtful. Could play in a goal-line stand, perhaps. --Inside linebacker, Lance Mehl. Injury: knee. He called the Jets' defensive signals and made the Pro Bowl for the first time last year. But he's out for the season. "It's not so much the injuries," Jet Coach Joe Walton said. "It's the injuries to one position. Usually, you can replace one offensive lineman or one linebacker or one defensive back. But when you start losing three and four guys at one position, it becomes difficult." For the Jets, it has become difficult. The Jet defensive line was one of the best. The big names there have been replaced by some not-ready-for-prime-time-players. If you're a Ram offensive lineman, the thought of facing Ben Rudolph, Tom Baldwin and Barry Bennett is a lot more appealing than the line of Gastineau, Klecko and Lyons. Also, there are developing trends. Hampton, he of the lowly Miami running game, became the first back to run for more than 100 yards against the Jets this season. In fact, no one else had come close. Craig James of the New England Patriots was next with 63 yards.
OK, I call total bullshit on this one, Junc, and up until now, you have been arguing pretty well. If you want to blame one person for that Playoff loss in 1986, the first words out of your mouth better be "Mark Gastineau". No way do you blame O'Brien over him. No Way.
O'Brien was my favorite player as a kid but he killed us as much as, if not more than, gastineau. He had a million opportunities to lead us to points in 2 OTs or run the clock when Cle cut the lead to 3. Gastineau kept Cleveland alive but they still were down 10 w/ the ball on their side of the field w/ under 3 mins to play.
If Gastineau dosn't fuck up, the Jets take a knee, and game over. No way is that game O'Brien's fault.
That's not true, Clebveland still would have had the ball but it would have been 3rd and 15 or so and the way that D choked you don't think we could have allowed them to get 15 yds in 2 dowsn to keep that drive alive?
It would have been 3rd and 24 from the Browns 18. That game was O-V-E-R and Gastineau cost the Jets a trip to the AFC Championship. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEIJck8VgRA&feature=related[/youtube]
Gastineau was clearly the #1 goat but the offense did have chances to win the game and failed. The late hit was in regulation, we lost in double OT because we couldn't get in FG range in over a quarter of extra football. And when we were trying to run out the clock in the 4th after Cleveland scored the first time, for some inexplicable reason the Jets tried a QB draw with Skeets O'Brien going straight into the line and lost yardage. That went as a sack, which at that time stopped the clock and saved Cleveland a timeout. I don't know if that was Walton's idea or O'Brien's as I boycotted all TV and radio etc for about the next month.
