What? The Jets gift-wrapped the Championship Game, and Herman Munster should have sent personal thank you cards to everyone on the Jets roster. Parcells on top of it, I'll throw a banana peel in his path and pray that he slips.
I think you're missing the point of my post. The idea is to say which is more useful, an amazing CB or an amazing pass-rusher. You seem to be applying the entire Jets defense when, in fact, we would only be talking about Revis. FWIW, the first team to beat the Saints (the Cowboys) did it not because of their secondary, but because of their pass-rush lead by DeMarcus Ware.
And what I've been trying to say is that it's all about how you use the great player. The Jets defense was built around Revis' strength and it held the high powered saints O to 10 points. Even though they had all those weapons you talked about and Revis was only covering one guy.
I just have to say that it speaks volumes about how far both Sanchez and Stafford still have to go to be seen as even good QB's that this thread has devolved into a Darrelle Revis vs Reggie White argument... :smile:
I thought it was common knowledge that the way you got the most out of an elite player was by deploying them correctly. The heart of the issue is great CB vs great pass-rusher. The Jets have more talent on defense than the Cowboys yet despite only holding them to 10 points (btw, you have to consider how the Saints' offensive gameplan may have been influenced by the defensive TDs they scored, they might have been content to milk the clock and play the time of possession game) the Jets lost while the Cowboys left. In those games DeMarcus Ware had 2 sacks and 2 forced fumbles while Revis had 2 passes defended. This obviously doesn't take in to account all the plays Brees was flustered by Revis taking away his #1 read/was pressured by the pass-rush of Ware. Accepting that as it is, which of those two players do you think influenced the game more?
Is this why you post on our message boards? Because Giant fans don't want to read your long-ass comments? No offense. :smile: I actually agree with what you wrote to the extent that you can avoid a shutdown corner but you can't avoid an elite pass rusher. However, the advantage of having a shutdown corner is that you can take out the passing game completely which is what allowed us to hold the Saints to 10 points. If we had Ware's 2 forced fumbles when we played them we probably wouldn't have been able to convert them into points any way because Sanchez was having the first of many bad games in his rookie year.
Sadly, I am long-winded both in reality and on the Internets. I see the points you're making and could say more about them, but remember that the talk was about which you would generally have and not how these specific defenders would help beat the New Orleans Saints. It's far more likely that you see an amazing defensive line make up for an average secondary than you see an amazing secondary make up for an average defensive line. The Steelers only have average players in their secondary outside of Polamalu. The same can be said for the Ravens outside of Reed. The Giants Super Bowl team of 2007 had an average (at best) secondary. I can't really think of any elite defensive unit/performance that happened because the QB couldn't find anyone open and was coverage-sacked 5 times in a game.
The problem here is that your assumption is that in order for a defense to have a great game shutting down the pass they need to have actually sacked the QB 5 times. The Jets had a bunch of great defensive performances last year where they got 3 or fewer sacks in the process of shutting down the opponent's passing game. This happened weeks 1 and 2, 7, 12 and 15. The QB's shut down were Matt Schaub, Tom Brady, Raider's Disaster, Delhomme and Ryan. I'm not counting the Cincinnati game, because it wasn't representative of their normal offense or the New Orleans game, because Brees had several off performances in a month long span.
That isn't what I'm talking about. Obviously the way to get the most out of a player is to use them correctly. Holy shit man. What I'm saying is that the arguments about great CB vs. great pass rusher is irrelevant if you have someone that knows how to tailor the defense to maximize the value of it's great players there probably isn't much of a difference. See above. You act like the reason the Jets lost to the Saints was there defense. Sanchez throwing three INT's is why they lost. They held the Saints to the same yardage the Cowboys did. Looking purely at stats DWARE was obviously the biggest difference maker in the two games. Stats don't tell the story of how aggressive the Jets were able to be on defense because of Revis.
Substitute five sacks for 15 pressures or 11 hits or any other number/stat combo you like, that's only the hypothetical example I had off the top of my head. Any combo of those is going to, typically, influence the game more than an equally talented secondary. Games really are won and lost in the trenches, it's a cliche but it's true.
Dude, you're doing exactly the same thing people have blasted lesser posters for doing earlier in this thread. You're taking two quantities that are inherently unequal and trying to use an unfair hypothetical example of your own creation to make them equal. This comparison requires ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL to be an accurate test, this isn't hard. We can't make the CB a future hall of famer and the DE great but nothing special. We can't talk about the level of talent elsewhere on the defense (even if there are some convenient examples to use). And, most recently, we can't use coaching talent. The question is simple: would you rather have an amazing CB or an equally amazing pass-rusher? The answer is pass-rusher. Just like OL talent can make an average RB or passing game better, DL talent can make an average secondary or LB corps better. And I never said the reason the Jets lost to the Saints was because of the defense. If the Jets defense had laid an egg that would actually make this comparison invalid because Dallas' defense had a strong showing. And tell me, do you think the Saints having to assign extra blockers to Ware and design passing plays with only 3 step drops might have influenced the game similar to the way Revis' coverage did? I understand you love Darelle Revis and I'm not saying anything negative about him or his influence on the game. Try looking past your green glasses and seeing the point I'm trying to make. A great pass-rusher is more valuable to a team than a great corner. That doesn't make the great corner worthless and that doesn't mean he doesn't help his team out a lot. Stop taking offense where none is intended, stop extrapolating portions of my argument that aren't there, and just read what I'm saying. If you don't like it, then try arguing against my real argument and not the one you made up.
I'm not taking any offense to anything other than the fact that you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, that's very clear by your response. I'm sorry you don't get it, and I'm not explaining again. Please try to read what I posted and understand my point. Maybe if you spent less time talking down to me and more time with comprehending my point which is a DIRECT argument against your point you'd do better here.
I like Sanchez but would not have moved up in the draft to get him. The Jets made a big mistake in the 08 draft in not picking Chad Henne. He was a second round pick and has the potential of bringing the Dolphins to the SB. I think Josh Freeman would also have been a great pick. Picking him would have giving us more draft picks. It's a big mistake moving up in the draft. I would rather see us move down and get more picks. On the QB question either Henne or Freeman are as good as Sanchez.
I think the article is a little dismissive of Sanchez's natural ability. To say that he has just above average arm strength isn't correct, he has a good arm. It's not elite like Stafford, but only maybe two other QBs in the NFL have that kind of arm. He makes it sound like Dirty's arm is barely good enough for the league. That said, Stafford was pretty good last year for a rookie too, he just didn't have the team around him to do that much. They should have done some more for that line this offseason though, because each year they wait they're lengthening his learning curve.
I totally agree with you that games are won and lost in the trenches. The reason the Jets defense was great last year was that Rex Ryan put a huge premium on controlling the trenches in the passing game via relentless unpredictable blitzing, and asking his corners for 2.5 seconds of solid coverage. The Jets however did not sack all that many QB's in the process and I think Ryan's defense put to rest the idea that you must get to the QB to have a great pass defense. All you really need to do, according to Ryan, is put consistent pressure on the QB and limit his opportunities to make reads. It's a lot easier to do that with a couple of fairly average safeties blitzing than it is to go find one of the few elite pass rushing linebackers or defensive ends that are out there. Sacking the QB is great because it causes the next play to be under heavier down and distance pressure but getting in the QB's field of vision and making him hurry the throw is a lot easier to replicate down after down.
